OpenSpace policy and pricing change

Lets get some brainstorming going here to arrive at a official sldm poisiton on the recent policy and pricing change of LL concerning OpenSpace regions. A position focussing on this particualr issue.

We already call for negotiation of ToS and end to unilateral contract changes, which is the underlying basis of these actions and consequences.

Original LL Blog post: http://blog.secondlife.com/2008/10/27/openspace-pricing-and-policy-changes/

Forum Discussion Thread: http://forums.secondlife.com/forumdisplay.php?f=354

SL Terms of Service: http://secondlife.com/corporate/tos.php

SLDM GroupIM after which we created this thread:

[14:05] Ozzie Drucker: is there a position we r takin in regards to open sim pricing change?
[14:06] Smoke Wijaya: Ozzie, we dont have one ...the blogpost came out yesterday...
[14:06] Smoke Wijaya: hmm
[14:06] Triss Gray: yes, it is classified as evil in degree 5 class c :-)
[14:07] Smoke Wijaya: let me start a thread on our forum and discuss that?
[14:07] Rin Tae: we have talked about it today, but we have not talked about some special position towards it
[14:07] KirShan Andel: hey all
[14:07] Rin Tae: yes.. the forum
[14:07] KirShan Andel: here's the train ticket
[14:07] Ozzie Drucker: its absolutely un fair....
[14:07] Smoke Wijaya: ok, will make one .. 2 minutes
[14:07] Triss Gray: in general; it's as always: they should have coommunicated earlier, asking feedback, thinking it through better etc
[14:08] KirShan Andel: rin, tp triss
[14:08] KirShan Andel: i can;t do it
[14:08] KirShan Andel: and oz too
[14:08] Ozzie Drucker: cant change rules midstream
[14:08] Ozzie Drucker: but they did!!
[14:09] Smoke Wijaya: lets indeed get an official sldm position on this .. lets collaborate on one on the forums. We can connect this to our call for negotiation of the ToS changes, regarding the pretext of the ToS, where they say they can change the ToS at their sole discretion at any time
[14:10] Triss Gray: wel, they can :-) it's in the tos ;-)
[14:10] Ozzie Drucker: they should at least grandfather existing open sims
[14:10] Rin Tae: yes, agreed
[14:11] Ozzie Drucker: this is real money we play with here
[14:11] Smoke Wijaya: so yes Ozzie, they "can"
[14:11] Triss Gray: and you even agreed to it :-)
[14:11] Ozzie Drucker: yes they can, but they shouldnt
[14:11] Ozzie Drucker: they should "punish" the over users who have been warned
[14:11] Smoke Wijaya: "Linden Lab may amend this Agreement at any time in its sole discretion, effective upon posting the amended Agreement at the domain or subdomains of http://secondlife.com where the prior version of this Agreement was posted" http://secondlife.com/corporate/tos.php
[14:12] Ozzie Drucker: i am aware, i am talking business ethics here[14:17] mirre Catteneo: right smoke, im joined the huge demonstrations, springing up all over sl, group is called -sos- , free to join, click it twice in my profile to be updated realtime.join!
[14:18] mirre Catteneo: hundreds of members in just a few hours, go figure^^
[14:19] Smoke Wijaya: ok mirre, can you keep us posted, in that thread I created, of waht might be organised
[14:19] Smoke Wijaya: I cannot join a group at the moment .. limit
[14:19] KirShan Andel: anyonen wants to come here?
[14:19] Samantha Nowicka: Hi. Sorry, I haven't been active much lately. Could someone tell me what the issue is? Are small sims being taxed more?
[14:19] KirShan Andel: it's about instructional technology
[14:20] KirShan Andel: the results of an MA paper
[14:20] Smoke Wijaya: Hey Samantha, welcome back :)
[14:20] mirre Catteneo: yes, if you like, but real time posts are in the groupchat, i will try though, but i hate to spam your group
[14:20] mirre Catteneo: i will post demonstration slurls :o)
[14:21] Samantha Nowicka: what is the issue?
[14:21] Triss Gray: mm, interesting, my landlord just sent me a notecard about openspace, even though I am not on one
[14:21] KirShan Andel: here there's backlag on mr chat
[14:21] Ozzie Drucker: basically profiteering on their part
[14:21] Smoke Wijaya: you dont have to update us realtime ... I mean at least state the group .. and if there are plans for some organised protests along the way, post the details
[14:22] KirShan Andel: that is so far
[14:22] Samantha Nowicka: chat lag. I am disoriented, Smoke. What is the issure here? Are small sims being taxed more?
[14:22] Ozzie Drucker: basically they r profiteering
[14:22] Samantha Nowicka: Yhanks Smoke. Feeling a bit disoriented. What has been going on?
[14:22] KirShan Andel: Institutional technology
[14:22] mirre Catteneo: we need every groupmember we can get . just for numbers alone
[14:22] Smoke Wijaya: in this case, it is a policy change around OpenSpace regions, whih were light-version of normal full force sims, which allowed for people to own considerable land for a smaller price....they changed the pricing of these now, wth an increase of 60% or soemthing.
[14:23] KirShan Andel: starting soon
[14:23] mirre Catteneo: big demonstration at the nautilus sims
[14:23] Samantha Nowicka: who used these open sims?
[14:23] Smoke Wijaya: KirShan, you are talking about an expo, and their topic, which might be also cause for misunderstanding here now.
[14:23] Triss Gray: a lot of people were "abusing" the openspace offer though
[14:23] mirre Catteneo: everyone who cant afford a full sim
[14:23] Smoke Wijaya: Samantha, many individual residnets who rented it from landlords, since you needed to have a full force sim to be allowed to have OpenSpace regions...
[14:23] KirShan Andel: i hope this is not regarded as spam, it's the easiest wat to reach ya all
[14:23] Smoke Wijaya: also non profits to make coalitions...
[14:24] Ozzie Drucker: punish the abusers then
[14:24] KirShan Andel: i agree mirre
[14:24] Smoke Wijaya: right
[14:24] Smoke Wijaya: Ozzie, it is a strange move to combat the wrong use of them
[14:24] Smoke Wijaya: it does not make sense.
[14:24] Ozzie Drucker: i am not combatting the wrong use of them
[14:24] Samantha Nowicka: what non-profits? And who were the usual users? Are landlords the biggest users?
[14:24] Ozzie Drucker: they r raising the price on the ones who use correctly
[14:25] Ozzie Drucker: also
[14:25] Samantha Nowicka: are ordinary SL users affected by this?
[14:25] Smoke Wijaya: landlords owned them .. paying tier to LL, but rented full regions to other people, individual residents, non profits etc
[14:25] Triss Gray: well, the ll reaction is wrong in many ways, but as they say in dutch, velen hebben boter op het hoofd :-)
[14:25] Samantha Nowicka: or just sim owners?
[14:25] Ozzie Drucker: who is an ordinary user?
[14:25] Ozzie Drucker: u ?
[14:25] Smoke Wijaya: no Samantha, ordinary ...
[14:25] Ozzie Drucker: or me?
[14:25] Triss Gray: i'm a pretty ordinary sl user :-) and I'm not affected so far :-)
[14:25] Smoke Wijaya: this was very popular since you could have the space of a full sim, albeit with less prims and less performance, for 75 US$ instead of 300
[14:26] Samantha Nowicka: ok, how are ordinary users affected? Sorry if these are silly questions. I just want to know facts before demonstrating.
[14:26] Ozzie Drucker: there re a lot of people affected
[14:26] Ozzie Drucker: owners
[14:26] Ozzie Drucker: users
[14:26] Ozzie Drucker: residents
[14:26] Ozzie Drucker: visitors
[14:26] Smoke Wijaya: ok ... not all users, but normal users owning some land
[14:26] Ozzie Drucker: friends
[14:26] Ozzie Drucker: cmon
[14:26] Smoke Wijaya: and also what Ozzie says, albeit some more indirectly
[14:27] Samantha Nowicka: ok. Smoke, you said, "landlords owned them .. paying tier to LL, but rented full regions to other people, individual residents, non profits etc"
[14:27] Ozzie Drucker: by ordinary u mean non owners of property?
[14:28] Smoke Wijaya: right Samantha....but that construction is not allowed anymore now either
[14:28] Samantha Nowicka: I mean the ordinary joe who arent able to pay thousands of pounds/dollars for sims. Are they effected?
[14:28] Smoke Wijaya: ordinary ones, int he sense that could afford around 100 US$ instead of many
[14:29] Smoke Wijaya: directly
[14:29] Ozzie Drucker: samantha, the open sims allowed ur definiyion af an ordinary person to own a sim
[14:29] Samantha Nowicka: Thanks Ozzie.
[14:29] Triss Gray: they probably aren't affected, since most of the openspace landbarons charged as much for their openspace as they would for a normal sim
[14:29] Ozzie Drucker: so if ordinary means that, then that is ordinary
[14:29] Smoke Wijaya: Samantha, the notice I send out in our group, with the links "For those of you and/or friends owning/renting a OpenSpace region, will want to check out the policy change and pricing change of these sims that Jack Linden announced on the LL Blog: http://blog.secondlife.com/2008/10/27/openspace-pricing-and-policy-changes/

Froum-discussion about this: http://forums.secondlife.com/showthread.php?t=289652&page=3&pp=15"
[14:29] Ozzie Drucker: open simd are one quarter the price
[14:29] Ozzie Drucker: no they dont
[14:29] Samantha Nowicka: Thanks Smoke
[14:30] Samantha Nowicka: Ok, I will think about it and when i am on again I will have a good chat with Smoke about it. Have to go for now. Bye!
[14:30] Smoke Wijaya: no Triss, that is not really true, but that is one misuse they want to combat
[14:30] Smoke Wijaya: Bye Samantha
[14:30] Ozzie Drucker: open sims can be bought for 1 linden and tiers of 30000 kindens a month
[14:30] Ozzie Drucker: lindens*
[14:30] Smoke Wijaya: they could also be owned by non payment info on file users
[14:30] Ozzie Drucker: full sims are 4 times the tiers
[14:30] Smoke Wijaya: yes
[14:31] Ozzie Drucker: and 120000 lindens to buy
[14:31] Smoke Wijaya: (need to walk the doggie, be back later) this is the thread, lets get soemthing on paper together: http://www.sldemocraticmovement.org/forum/openspace_policy_and_pricing_c...
[14:31] Ozzie Drucker: i guess this use of ordinary has irritated me, sorry folks
[14:31] Triss Gray: Openspace Region 65,536 sqm $250 $75
[14:31] Triss Gray: first is upfront, second monthly
[14:31] Ozzie Drucker: we r only interested in the ordinary person then?
[14:31] Smoke Wijaya: Ozzie, we agree with you I think....
[14:31] Smoke Wijaya: no Ozzie
[14:31] Ozzie Drucker: lol
[14:32] Smoke Wijaya: where did we say that? ordinary is used here as opposed to corps and large businesses
[14:32] Smoke Wijaya: imo
[14:33] Triss Gray: ordinary as in "common", what most people would do have/...
[14:33] Smoke Wijaya: anyway, have to be back later .. doggie is dsetroying things now .. lol
[14:33] Triss Gray: and I guess the mojority of residents doesn't own any sim :-)
[14:33] Triss Gray: baaad doggie!
[14:33] Ozzie Drucker: i joined this movement for a reason...i believe we need to wrest control of second life from linden labs as time goes by,,,create a true democracy here, if u will. all people are different, and here for different reaasons,,,,but that should be inconsequential in determining what is ethical on their part, and what is not
[14:34] Triss Gray: sure
[14:34] Ozzie Drucker: the quaestion was posed, does this affect ordinary people,,,,
[14:35] Ozzie Drucker: and it does of course
[14:35] Ozzie Drucker: they are buying from land lorda
[14:35] Ozzie Drucker: renting etc
[14:35] Ozzie Drucker: unless even those are not considered ordiary
[14:35] Triss Gray: well, my "land lord" has the following view on it, which is quite interesting:
[14:36] Triss Gray: I can only answer, that we have not made up ANY plans for price changes and would consider it irresponsible to do that now. (see below.) We are analyzing the situation and the announcement and are awaiting further clarification of the issue from Linden Lab.
[14:37] Triss Gray: I can only urge you to stay calm and wait until "the dust settles" before judging this event. So far, nothing has happened - especially nothing bad. :)

You might have heard it before ("keep calm") but it's actually sound advice, whenever confusion arrises. :) Panic and rush action rarely leads to great results. The current situation in the financial markets of RL is a telling example of that.

Currently, we do not know what will happen, when - and if - those price changes go into effect next year. Linden Lab has a long tradition of announcing stupid decisions and changing them when the community protest becomes too loud.

Additionally, it is hard to foresee what this will mean to land prices in SL. Linden Lab will (might) sell fresh sims at a higher price, which might actually raise the market value of land. The announced tier increases - should they really go into effect - might lead to some people selling off their land, which might compensate that upside effect. It is still too early to decide ...
[14:37] Ozzie Drucker: that is fair,,,but the issue sits out there
[14:37] Rin Tae: they are waiting to see how the land market will react to this I think
[14:38] Triss Gray: now I don't agree with the way LL is tackling the openspace thing either
[14:38] Ozzie Drucker: note that he references community protest
[14:38] Hippasus Alter: Don't fool yourselves ...as long you are using their machines and their network there will never be any kind of "Democracy" ...Corporations like these should be handled with iron fist "Either-Or" aggressive moves
[14:38] Ozzie Drucker: that is essential
[14:38] mirre Catteneo: lol cube, my neighbours wont be pleased , but ehh, here it goes, lol
[14:40] Ozzie Drucker: were u here for the tea party
[14:40] Hippasus Alter: Maybe SL should be banned from European Networks as an Illegal Gambling Game ..... some group might be intersected to promote this in European Commission
[14:40] Smoke Wijaya: " Ozzie Drucker: i joined this movement for a reason...i believe we need to wrest control of second life from linden labs as time goes by,,,create a true democracy here, if u will. all people are different, and here for different reaasons,,,,but that should be inconsequential in determining what is ethical on their part, and what is not" - Ozzie, I completely agree
[14:41] Ozzie Drucker: ?
[14:41] Ozzie Drucker: wow
[14:41] Ozzie Drucker: ty
[14:42] Smoke Wijaya: and do you mean the SL Boston Tea Party, protesting primtax? ... no, were you?
[14:42] Triss Gray: I think that was a huge chatlagged comment :-)
[14:42] Ozzie Drucker: dont fool urself, democracy here is possible, with the lindens as sort of the royal family
[14:42] Smoke Wijaya: that was in 04 or 05 or something...
[14:42] Ozzie Drucker: my original avi was, yes
[14:42] Smoke Wijaya: ?
[14:42] Smoke Wijaya: wow, chatlag
[14:42] Ozzie Drucker: this is my alt
[14:43] Smoke Wijaya: thats good experience
[14:43] Ozzie Drucker: protest works
[14:43] Triss Gray: dont fool urself, democracy here is possible, with the lindens as sort of the royal family --> yes, the lindens should evolve to one of many service providers, where you can buy "land", asset space perhaps, etc.. notice the one of many
[14:45] Ozzie Drucker: so can we protest this change in pricing? is that a lot to ask?

[14:46] Triss Gray: sure we can :-) but perhaps let's not just protest the pricing change, but also the way it came to be.... place it in a broader context then just zomg more moneyz :-)
[14:46] Smoke Wijaya: I dont see why not...
[14:48] Smoke Wijaya: we might want to get something on paper as offical sldm stance as well, more worked out on this issue, but we already call for negotiation of ToS/ending of unilateral contract chnages of LL
[14:48] Ozzie Drucker: ok
[14:48] Ozzie Drucker: cool
[14:48] Smoke Wijaya: fits perfectly

[14:48] Ozzie Drucker: ty for ur time....this made me a lill more emotional than normal...:)
[14:48] Ozzie Drucker: so i appreciate ur ear
[14:49] Rin Tae: no problem .. check out and commetn on our forum
[14:49] Smoke Wijaya: http://www.sldemocraticmovement.org/forum/openspace_policy_and_pricing_c...

[16:01] Ernest Newman: superficial impression: this is kind of a SL Bourgeois issue, lol...only those rich enugh to own a whole sim can have an "open" sim...pretty exclusive club, it would seem, compared to "average" user...also, seems likey that "abusers" of the feature are most vocal, active elements behind these protests, heh...
[16:01] Ernest Newman: not to say it's not a worthwhile, or viable issue, necessarily, heh...just a superficial impression
[16:02] Smoke Wijaya: it did open up all kinds of possibilties for groups as well Ernest .. 75 US$ is way easier to get together as group then 300 US$
[16:02] Smoke Wijaya: and dont forget ... I stil pay for SLDM land alone, which is 35 US$ ....
[16:02] Smoke Wijaya: opensims were a great deal..
[16:03] Smoke Wijaya: openspace regions*
[16:03] Ernest Newman: well, the nonprofit aspect, yes...but something tells me that was not main use...more of a profiteering thing, I'm sure...
[16:04] Smoke Wijaya: and besides the particular issue here .. the underlying reasons of this we call for anyway .. naemly that LL is allowed to unilaterally change contract....
[16:04] Smoke Wijaya: we call for abolishment of that of course...
[16:05] Ernest Newman: but the nonprofit access should, cold be addressed, for sure...regardless of "openspace", scheme, heh...
[16:05] Ernest Newman: well, elements of the bourgeoisie can and shold be won over, for sure, to the popular democratic movement, lol...
[16:06] Ernest Newman: not against picking up on this as an issue
[16:06] Smoke Wijaya: well, I did say this in Commonwealth groupIM as well ... the non profits still have discounts on full sims
[16:07] Smoke Wijaya: it is not the biggest issue indeed .. but Ernest dont forget .. SLDM is for all (besides fascists and nazis, they can die indeed)...
[16:07] Ernest Newman: agreed....on both counts

[16:12] Hippasus Alter: Linden acts as if "they didn't know" that Openspaces will be "misused" they ways they are "misused" .... the all thing makes Linden look really bad ...i don't trust them anymore i was sure that "Something is wrong here" when they announced the "beneficial" Openspaces packages ...It all looks like a bad marketing trick to lurk people to more expenses. IMO Linden should be handled from now on with Legal action, protesting is of no use we are dealing with a malevolent company.
[16:12] Hippasus Alter: If they wanted to have Openspaces not to be "misused" they should have set up some SPECIFIC norms (down in numbers) for their operation FROM THE BEGINING , norms that if passed the service should be suspended ...but once they didn't do that it obvious the "openspaces" is just a way to seduce people on more expenses.
[16:13] Triss Gray: go ahead :-) It would be very interesting to see the outcome of a legal dispute in such matters
[16:13] Smoke Wijaya: which you call out as much as you can by protesting with the means we got, which is SL inworld, as well as the web and media
[16:13] Triss Gray: though most likely it'll be settled again

[16:13] Smoke Wijaya: and yes Hippasus, agreed with most there

[16:14] Ernest Newman: agree, an astute analysis...they are not stupid, surely know that any loopholes will be taken advantage of, lol

[16:15] Ernest Newman: a total set up, heh...suck em in, then sock it to 'em, heh
[16:16] Triss Gray: they probably have foreseen the protests as well
[16:16] Triss Gray: it's a known tactic
[16:16] Triss Gray: propose something bad
[16:16] Triss Gray: let people rabble
[16:16] Ernest Newman: well, especailly when they cut into big proffits, heh...like the casino owners, lol
[16:16] Triss Gray: then propose what you really wanted to get to
[16:17] Triss Gray: meh, can't really feel sorry for casino owners :-)
[16:17] Triss Gray: neither for the "banks"
[16:17] Ernest Newman: I mean, this really has nothing to do with the rabble...it's about the land barons, rich enough to take advantage of the "Openspace"
[16:17] Ernest Newman: isn't it?

[16:18] Triss Gray: probably
[16:18] Ernest Newman: who else can buy a whole sim? jeez..I went shopping for some land, and about choked, when I saw how much it is, heh
[16:18] Triss Gray: depends on what you want I guess
[16:18] Triss Gray: I rent a 4k, and up to now I've been able to afford it
[16:19] Ernest Newman: well, wanted something with no traffic, no lag, with plenty of prim allowance, heh...forget about it!
[16:19] Smoke Wijaya: Ernest, landbarons might be enablers and also hit by this, but through that it means that users with less money could still "own" a "full" sim, about light version...75 instead of 300 US$
[16:20] Triss Gray: well, if you want some rl land far from traffic but close to shops and all that, you'll pay your ass off too :-)
[16:20] Smoke Wijaya: and those users that massively flocked to those sims, since you have way less land for the same price on the mainland, will now not be able to afford thta anymore.
[16:21] Ernest Newman: I can dig that Smoke...but those deals didn't see so good...for one thing, they could screw you, whenever they want, and still "own" the land...and the prim limit is pretty,....limiting, heh
[16:21] Smoke Wijaya: it made it possible for lots of people to start projects as well, collaborations, but fo course also nice humper bunkers
[16:21] Triss Gray: for that 75 you can rent a whole lot land as well
[16:21] Smoke Wijaya: yes, they could...and that construction is also now not possible anymore
[16:21] Smoke Wijaya: they tier payor and owner of estate have to be the same
[16:21] Smoke Wijaya: now
[16:22] Smoke Wijaya: and to own an OpenSpace region .. you need to own a full force sim, for around 300 US$, first
[16:22] Triss Gray: yes, but I guess you could still create a group and give people in that group estate perms?
[16:23] Ernest Newman: I don't understand how they can charge so much, anway, though...its all virtual...how could it possibly cost them that much? surely LL must make a huge profit?!
[16:23] Hippasus Alter: To European users ..You can find guidance on how to deal with malevolent companies attempting to get illicit profits ...you should seek information in the European Commission site and demand legal action in case you think its time to do so.
[16:23] Smoke Wijaya: and that has always been the case, that you needed to havea full sim to have openspace sims, but that made landbarons and those regions an enabling and empowring force for a lot of people
[16:23] Triss Gray: well, the added cost is in all the people on those regions complaining for one
[16:23] Smoke Wijaya: Hippasus, would there be any way for us to initiate that?
[16:24] Triss Gray: and running a quadcore server with a lot of ram and good connections isn't that cheap
[16:24] Hippasus Alter: yes check the EU site
[16:24] Hippasus Alter: there can be measures taken against Linden
[16:24] Triss Gray: you have to compare renting a sim to hiring the server capacity, and that isn't too cheap most of the time either
[16:24] Smoke Wijaya: can you throw us a link, or maybe later add one to the forum thread on our site. Hippasus .. I will also check it out
[16:25] Triss Gray: and since it isp roven that people will pay that amount of money for it, why ask less, if you're on the receiving end :-)
[16:25] Smoke Wijaya: (many of us are european)
[16:25] Triss Gray: maybe some consumer organisations could help as well, though it's probably to far away from their usual stuff
[16:26] Triss Gray: There are some laws against upping prices that order of magnitude without adding value
[16:26] Ozzie Drucker: its called gouging
[16:26] Smoke Wijaya: it would be great if we could get soemthing like that of the ground...
[16:26] Ernest Newman: heh...EU seems to like slapping big US corps down, lol...should indeed sic 'em on LL
[16:26] Ozzie Drucker: price gouging
[16:27] Triss Gray: well, in be we have test aankoop, but these people are crooks themselves :-)
[16:27] Triss Gray: LL isn't that big on EU scale :-)
[16:27] Ozzie Drucker: it really seems an effort to hurt the estates, where they r gouged already in terms of tiers
[16:27] Smoke Wijaya: EU likes to crack down on Microsoft though :)
[16:28] Triss Gray: so what we need is for ll to form an alliance with m$ somehow :-p then EU can cry wolf :-)
[16:28] Triss Gray: though that alliance in itself will not be good for the openness and user rights.... m$ isn't too keen on all that :-)
[16:29] Ernest Newman: well, especailly since over half of SL users are non US...and a majority of those probly euros
[16:29] Smoke Wijaya: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Price_gouging
[16:29] Ernest Newman: owww....noooo! Not MS!
[16:29] Triss Gray: then they can dump em again
[16:29] Triss Gray: we just need ms untill the eu snaps into action
[16:29] Triss Gray: ;-)
[16:30] Ernest Newman: lol...thats Too machiavellian, heh
[16:30] Triss Gray: maybe they can authenticate sl using windows live id's :-) that's not too harmfull
[16:30] Triss Gray: and sth microsoft would like to boast about
[16:30] Triss Gray: wince their live platform isn't doing too well :-)
[16:30] Triss Gray: since*
[16:31] Hippasus Alter: It is obvious Linden attempts to gain illicit profits ......when what they should do was to put down in numbers the limits of the "Openspaces" and suspend the service on them who pass these limits....
[16:31] Smoke Wijaya: Hippasus, you can help point out to the specific place/procedure? since you stated it..you must know something about it...can not directly find it

[16:33] Hippasus Alter: I know one thing ...Fraud companies can be handled legally in Europe ....European Union is not Corpoland yet..as other places
[16:33] Smoke Wijaya nods .. will try to find it
[16:34] Smoke Wijaya: but I want to ask people to help think this all through, also after this groupIM discussion...
[16:34] Smoke Wijaya: lets use this spark...
[16:34] Ozzie Drucker: i am glad that we have decided that this is an issue for ordinary people....
[16:34] Triss Gray: If we go that way we may really need a lawyer/political figure to help out....
[16:35] Triss Gray: someone who has an idea how that kind of requests work
[16:35] Ozzie Drucker: i think we need to protest......here...in second life
[16:35] Ozzie Drucker: not in rl
[16:35] Hippasus Alter: wrong
[16:35] Smoke Wijaya: both...
[16:35] Hippasus Alter: in RL and with legal means
[16:35] Smoke Wijaya: and web
[16:36] Smoke Wijaya: everything
[16:36] Ozzie Drucker: protesting in reeal life may be effective, but ultimately harmful to the recognition of second life as distinct from rl
[16:37] Hippasus Alter: The only effective thing against companies ..is LEgal action
[16:37] Smoke Wijaya: it isn't....is it...but maybe you mean, that RL laws should not just apply to internet spaces....
[16:37] Smoke Wijaya: which is a friggin good point.
[16:37] Smoke Wijaya: hmm
[16:37] Ozzie Drucker: wrong,,,the big changes in here have come from user protest within second life
[16:38] Ozzie Drucker: well smoke, im a futurist
[16:38] Smoke Wijaya: I know
[16:38] Smoke Wijaya: I follow you closely
[16:38] Smoke Wijaya: I mean
[16:38] Ozzie Drucker: and i believe that we have to protect the future protest
[16:38] Smoke Wijaya: I am as well
[16:38] Hippasus Alter: I am realist .... we aredelaing with a company and its product .. sorry but the rest are "playing" Democracy
[16:38] Ozzie Drucker: when we take linden down all together from within
[16:38] Ozzie Drucker: i aint playin
[16:38] Ozzie Drucker: nor do i consider this a game
[16:39] Ozzie Drucker: and i am a realist also
[16:39] Smoke Wijaya: yes Hippasus, we are not "playign democracy" ... we keep pointing to the ToS, a legal basis, for protections and rights
[16:39] Smoke Wijaya: their legal basis for not having to be aaccountable
[16:39] Smoke Wijaya: we are not "playing democracy"
[16:39] Ozzie Drucker: i believe the future will hold virtual reality as just that, a reality distinct from rl, thank god
[16:39] Ozzie Drucker: lol
[16:40] Smoke Wijaya: there is not ONE proposal of us for soem sort of parliamentary system...
[16:40] Ozzie Drucker: someone sent me a flag,,,thats a start
[16:40] Ozzie Drucker: the tea party worked
[16:41] Hippasus Alter: well ...you me ..all of us here are "Customers" not citizens ... :) we are using the product of a company ..all the rest is loosing the point ..and when one lose the point is not eble to deal with issues like this .... this is MIO
[16:41] Ozzie Drucker: boxes of tea were dumped all over, causing big sim problems
[16:41] Ozzie Drucker: and then linden made sl free
[16:41] Smoke Wijaya: Hippasus, you are right in that .. but there is certainly a new ontological space opened with cyberspace,w here SL and other usercreated spaces are the pinnacle of atm
[16:41] Ozzie Drucker: that was when u had to pay to build
[16:41] Ozzie Drucker: can u imagine that?
[16:42] Smoke Wijaya: we *are* "inhabitating" more and more cyberspace...
[16:42] Ozzie Drucker: this reality is part and parcel of the future.....
[16:43] Hippasus Alter: the only "ontological space" for a company is "its profits"
[16:43] Ozzie Drucker: and we need to keep that distinction, so we dont become embroiled in other rl issues
[16:43] Ozzie Drucker: but maybe thats for another time
[16:43] Smoke Wijaya: but you are right, in the current paradigm, with the concepts of reality and existence on the changing path .. you are right to talk about users, Not consumers btw. When saying consumers you miss the bvery important part that we PRODUCE this world, we created it....
[16:44] Ozzie Drucker: basically, in human terms, this sucks
[16:45] Ozzie Drucker: lol
[16:45] Ernest Newman: but even so, I don't see how using EU and rl legal pressures are detrimental to the virtual world....neither are entirely independant of the other, anymore
[16:45] Ozzie Drucker: lol
[16:46] Ozzie Drucker: it would be nice if we could develop an in world protest that was easy and could catch on
[16:46] Ernest Newman: or, perhpaps I should say "yet"
[16:47] Ozzie Drucker: i have a bad case of convo lag at the moment so forgive me if i sound disjointed
[16:47] Smoke Wijaya: I think that this group where the flag is also from ... has protests already, but Ozzie, I would agree
[16:48] Smoke Wijaya: but I would say that we do look to what others are doing as well, to get things a bit coordinated, even just by knowing of eachothers projects
[16:48] Ozzie Drucker: people wont want to carry a flag tho, and it doesnt affect sim stability much
[16:48] Ozzie Drucker: i am talking to the transhumanists here also
[16:48] Smoke Wijaya: if anyone knows of any protests by other groups, do let us know.
[16:48] Smoke Wijaya: Ozzie, you want to crash sims?
[16:48] Ozzie Drucker: ill let u know
[16:49] Ozzie Drucker: no, i want the lindens to know we can affect the performance of the world thru protest
[16:49] Smoke Wijaya: and btw, loading a sim full wit avatars does affect sim stability....
[16:49] Ozzie Drucker: and then they may listen
[16:49] Smoke Wijaya: ok
[16:49] Smoke Wijaya: right
[16:50] Ozzie Drucker: like we could all go to torleys sim,,"here" on thursday when he has his meetings
[16:50] Ozzie Drucker: and disrupt it
[16:50] Hippasus Alter: How EU can operate? ... Wait to get a a directorate from Commission to the european ISPs for banning a fraud network ...and then we see how
[16:50] Smoke Wijaya: yes, I was just thinking, we might want to go to different Linden office hours..
[16:50] Smoke Wijaya: and especially that of Robin and Jack Linden
[16:50] Ozzie Drucker: yes
[16:51] Ozzie Drucker: protest will work
[16:51] Ozzie Drucker: and anywhere there is a linden...protest
[16:51] Ozzie Drucker: it has in the past
[16:52] Smoke Wijaya: Hippasus, do help us out with that please .. it would be a worthwhile road to check out
[16:52] Ozzie Drucker: i think this is a trick to force the estates to abandon eventualaly and monpolize property, where only linden property is do-able
[16:52] Hippasus Alter: For one last time ... IMO The only thing that works is Legal action ....
[16:53] Smoke Wijaya: yes, we know...but I for one think we need to check all roads
[16:54] Ozzie Drucker: Do we have any plan to protest the new pricing of open sims?
It is an important issue, and should be addressed. We could coordinate with other groups poised to protest this unfair and gouging price increase. PLease consider this.
[16:55] Smoke Wijaya: and I dont know nothing about the specific procedures and laws, so cant really omment on that further Hippasus, I am sorry. Will definetily check it out though....
[16:55] Ozzie Drucker: i just sent this to transhumanist group
[16:55] Smoke Wijaya nods, ok
[16:56] Ozzie Drucker: hey smoke, we dont know much about rl laws, but we know how it works in here
[16:56] Ozzie Drucker: thats my point
[16:56] Smoke Wijaya: I am not a noob anymore, true :)
[16:57] Ozzie Drucker: torley on thursday at free, or used to be
[16:58] Ozzie Drucker: giving lessons
[16:58] Ozzie Drucker: i think at 1pm sl time
[16:58] Ozzie Drucker: at here i mean
[16:58] Ozzie Drucker: sorry
[16:58] Ozzie Drucker: the sim name is "here"
[16:59] Ozzie Drucker: we could all show up and anyone else we can get with these flags or whatever
[16:59] Ozzie Drucker: that is protest
[16:59] Ozzie Drucker: if enough came the sim would crash
[17:00] Ozzie Drucker: and crash again and again
[17:00] Geni Figaro: How would anyone notice the difference from usual lol
[17:00] Ozzie Drucker: lol
[17:00] Ozzie Drucker: funny
[17:00] Ozzie Drucker: true that
[17:00] Smoke Wijaya: Hi Geni
[17:01] Geni Figaro: the real protest would be to get sl to work properly for a whole 24 hrs - that would make people sit up!
[17:01] Geni Figaro: Hi Smoke :))
[17:01] Geni Figaro: ahhhhh chat lag - you see?
[17:01] Smoke Wijaya: lol
[17:01] Smoke Wijaya: man, I am already glad it is still kind of working :)
[17:01] Smoke Wijaya: normally it gets choked affter 5 lines
[17:01] Ozzie Drucker: i have bad lag
[17:02] Smoke Wijaya: we started this at 14.00
[17:02] Geni Figaro: kinda - everything I've touched for 2 days has zero contents
[17:02] Smoke Wijaya: lol
[17:02] Geni Figaro: rofl
[17:02] Ozzie Drucker: but that might be effective? too radical for u smoke?
[17:02] Smoke Wijaya: hahaha
[17:02] Ozzie Drucker: we could rezz our alts too
[17:02] Hippasus Alter: Keep in minf "light use" is not a technical term ...in most courts they would laugh to tears on this use of"terms"
[17:03] Hippasus Alter: /mind
[17:03] Smoke Wijaya: sorry...hmm, most people would describe me as radical Ozzie :)
[17:03] Ozzie Drucker: good
[17:03] Ozzie Drucker: lol
[17:03] Ozzie Drucker: i meant that in a friendly way
[17:04] Ozzie Drucker: light use is open to interpretation...
[17:04] Ozzie Drucker: they could stop anything else

[17:04] Ozzie Drucker: they have the power to do so in how they set em up
[17:05] Ozzie Drucker: they knew open sims would be used this waya, they aint stupid
[17:05] Smoke Wijaya: thread on sldm forum for later discussion on this issue and planning: http://www.sldemocraticmovement.org/forum/openspace_policy_and_pricing_c... (also contains this chatlog, this groupIM)
[17:05] Ozzie Drucker: hughe amounts of residents live on open sims
[17:07] Ozzie Drucker: where do they go? linden land
[17:07] Smoke Wijaya: will get some minutes, some highlighted thick pieces in that log tomorrow...getting bit late here...but to ease further planning and talks
[17:07] Smoke Wijaya: or lave SL Ozzie
[17:07] Smoke Wijaya: leave*
[17:08] Ozzie Drucker: i guess that could be too
[17:08] Ozzie Drucker: but i really think they r forcing estate owners into deep red situation, to further their own ends, with linden land
[17:09] Ozzie Drucker: they already charge 100 us more for estates as it is
[17:09] Ozzie Drucker: and then that forces more paid members
[17:09] Smoke Wijaya: I dont think we should point to a target other then the sl community
[17:09] Ozzie Drucker: meaning?
[17:09] Smoke Wijaya: target = victim of this
[17:10] Ozzie Drucker: well ultimately they pay more
[17:13] Smoke Wijaya: or less, since they have to sell the sims because other users cannot afford it anymore
[17:14] Smoke Wijaya: look, the victim are many, in different ways ... in anyways, no way to demarcate one group as clear target of Ll's action, so imo we should not try to. And using the full mass of the sl community, we stand sronger then just big landowners...and againm, the big landowners can only be big landowners since other people rent with them....
[17:15] Ozzie Drucker: u r right .....
[17:19] Ozzie Drucker: smoke, this is an opportunity to effect change
[17:22] Smoke Wijaya: yes
[17:22] Smoke Wijaya: is a spark
[17:23] Ozzie Drucker: and mass interest hopefully
[17:24] Ozzie Drucker: so the question really is, how to proceed
[17:24] Smoke Wijaya: yes...
[17:25] Smoke Wijaya: and to be honest, nmy brain is hsutting down a bit...
[17:25] Smoke Wijaya: well, that is clear from thats entence
[17:25] Smoke Wijaya: lol
[17:25] Ozzie Drucker: lol
[17:25] Ozzie Drucker: mine shut down years ago
[17:25] Smoke Wijaya: 1.30 am here
[17:25] Smoke Wijaya: lol
[17:25] Smoke Wijaya: ok
[17:25] Ozzie Drucker: u r in europe?
[17:26] Smoke Wijaya: yeah, dutchie
[17:26] Ozzie Drucker: im in chicago, usa
[17:26] Ozzie Drucker: nice to meet you
[17:26] Ozzie Drucker: i joined some time ago and havent been active
[17:26] Ozzie Drucker: i will be now! lol
[17:26] Smoke Wijaya: yeah liekwisse ... and this wasa good sesssion .. and we should continue it on our forum as well
[17:26] Smoke Wijaya: hehe, that would be great
[17:27] Ozzie Drucker: ok man, go to bed ( isay that alot in hereto people) :)
[17:27] Smoke Wijaya: but yeah, lets get some action going .. I have been calling for it for some while now .. also as "footage" for youtube vids to help get the message viral
[17:27] Ozzie Drucker: in fact my gf is here in front of me and she hasnt slept in 36 or so, from aus
[17:27] Smoke Wijaya: hehe
[17:28] Smoke Wijaya: I know that...
[17:28] Smoke Wijaya: lol
[17:28] Ozzie Drucker: poor baby lol
[17:28] Smoke Wijaya: but yeah, I will chime in with the discussion and planning tomorow again :) but this is good start...
[17:29] Smoke Wijaya: and we talked for friggin 3,5 hours here now...
[17:29] Ozzie Drucker: ok...think about protest smoke
[17:29] Smoke Wijaya: hehe
[17:29] Smoke Wijaya: yes.
[17:29] Ozzie Drucker: it will work
[17:29] Ozzie Drucker: gnight my friend
[17:31] Smoke Wijaya: I know protest works .. have been part of much, also Rl related .. like anti Front National protests, IBM sl protest for Italian workers, peace-protests, like Lag4Peace "Dont Iraq Iran" :) ... have done my organising :) here is youtube vid of the IBM one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dja5rlSGo0s
[17:31] Smoke Wijaya: alright, goodnight people, see you.