Outline for Reasonable "Justice system"

"explanations should not only be made when there are violations of the community standards, but also when something happened on their side"

Yeah Rin ... agreed.

 

Another issue with AR-system:

When you are permabanned/hardwarebanned, it seems you are also banned from the SL website; the place where you need to go to to file a support ticket to try to appeal....there of course should still be a way to access the support portal in these cases...

[13:09] Smoke Wijaya: Maybe we as well start....

[13:09] Rin Tae: sure

[13:09] Tanya Neutron: yes

[13:10] Rin Tae: anyone who comes late can still join in

[13:10] Smoke Wijaya: ...our discussions are not fixed, we don't have a moderator, but the topic of this week we would like to be the Abuse Report system, and the wider "justice"-system/structure of SL...

[13:11] Smoke Wijaya: ...whether the way it is now is correct/enough/just, or whether it should need updates and revisions and additions.

[13:11] Rin Tae: there are many ideas and sometimes fears running around because of this system .. especially since it seem to be easy to abuse by mass reporting inocent people or keeping lists of suppoesd griefers that hen are blacklsited in many sims

[13:12] Smoke Wijaya: Have you thought about the way this system works and maybe thought about some flaws you found in there?

[13:13] Rin Tae: ohh... the JLU fiasco has shown some short comings of this system

[13:13] Smoke Wijaya: hehe, yeah, that as well Rin.

[13:14] Tanya Neutron: what is the JLU fiasco?

[13:14] Smoke Wijaya: Well, since there are not much reactions...one of the problems is that it seems like Linden Lab does not investigate claims in abuse reports, but simply act on them ( when they fall in a certain category) ...

[13:14] Rin Tae: oohh... before I forget it .. for anyone interested in reading more about our discussions they can take a look on our forum and blog: http://www.sldemocraticmovement.org/

[13:15] Smoke Wijaya: Tanya, the JLU fiasco Rin points to is the drama that ensured after the leak of the secret Brainiac Wiki of this viglante group in SL, the JLU.

[13:15] Tanya Neutron: which category?

[13:16] Tanya Neutron: oh

[13:16] Tanya Neutron: who is the JLU tied to ll ?

[13:16] Smoke Wijaya: Well, the categories they seem to act on very quickly, and that thus also get used for settling personal scores through bogus claims, is being underage for instance....but lately also see reports of people ( including msyelf) that get ARd for violations of adult content policy....

[13:17] Smoke Wijaya: ok, will stay with the JLU for a moment then :)

[13:17] Smoke Wijaya: The JLU are not officialy tied to LL...no...

[13:17] Smoke Wijaya: ..but from this wiki leak, it does seem that soem lindens within the Gteam are "corrupt"...

[13:17] Smoke Wijaya: like Plexus

[13:17] Smoke Wijaya: this was already known kind of though...but with such 'evidence" it is even juicier.

[13:18] Tanya Neutron: ok

[13:18] Smoke Wijaya: In this thread you will find links to the different blogs etc around this JLU wiki leak and the drama that ensured: http://sldemocraticmovement.org/forum/vigilantes_tights_secret_database_...

[13:18] Smoke Wijaya: also a link to torrent of that wiki

[13:19] Smoke Wijaya: ( they tried to get all the posts concerning the leak taken off all the blogs.websites...)

[13:19] Rin Tae: it is a bit of a long read to get through all of it, so you should save it for a free moemnt .. it is however interesting to see the power trip some people have been on and .. in regard to the AR system .. how ready they have been to use any bit of pwer they might have got into theri hands

[13:20] Anonymous1: a futile quest - once it's out it's out

[13:20] Rin Tae: oncei t was out it stays out .. and it is good that it is out now

[13:20] Smoke Wijaya: Anyway, the JLU was a resdient group, not an LL one....and they made use of massive abuse reproting to get LLs focus on perceived :"griefers"...

[13:20] Smoke Wijaya: yeah, they will not get that genie in the bottle again...

[13:21] Anonymous1: having read parts of their wiki the JLU came out of it rather badly

[13:21] Anonymous1: the PN are better organised

[13:21] Smoke Wijaya: I think that will indeed be the consequence..although...

[13:21] Smoke Wijaya: ...many people, inclduing me, already did think negativily about them...

[13:21] Smoke Wijaya: not sure if it makes people turn 180% in what bthey think of JLU.

[13:22] Smoke Wijaya: The PN are dead....

[13:22] Smoke Wijaya: ..but not because of JLU.

[13:22] Anonymous1: are they really?

[13:22] Rin Tae: but I guess another 'neighbourhood watch' group will spring up

[13:22] Smoke Wijaya: well, effectivily, pretty much yes.

[13:23] Smoke Wijaya: Well, you should indeed read up ont he JLU stuff later on methinks, is a lot of reading...

[13:23] Smoke Wijaya: ...can I ask if any of you ever has been abuse reported and where an action ahs been taken on your account by LL?

[13:23] Aeris Betsen: Are still hubs and welcome areas anymore?

[13:23] Rin Tae: but the question is .. should in a virtual world .. I am thinking outside of SL as it is right now ... be the enforcement of rules be done by residents or the ones who owns the grid like the LLs are supposed to do now?

[13:24] Aeris Betsen: I know alot of ppl got ban by mass reports in those places

[13:24] Smoke Wijaya: ( I want to maybe talk a bit about one of the biggest flaws, namely concering the appeal possibility/process.)

[13:24] Amelie Emor: Apparently I've been abuse reported by people a million gazillion times. But I've never had any action taken against me. I think people threaten to do it more than they actually do it.

[13:24] Smoke Wijaya: Well, yes Aeris, that is where they "patrolled" the most and LL sandboxes...

[13:24] Dar Innis: Well, I was once told I was abuse reported, but no action was taken. Person X said she abuse reported me for disclosure: revealing my own name in my profile.

[13:24] Smoke Wijaya: Amelie, you do check your email attached to your account now and then?>

[13:25] Smoke Wijaya: because "warnings" you wont notice otherwise...

[13:25] Amelie Emor: Sure, as far as I can tell it's always been people pretending to have AR'd me.

[13:25] Aeris Betsen: Why is that a case of abuse report Dar? Is not that your right to do so?

[13:25] Smoke Wijaya: ...but the problem with "warnings" are, that they still add up on this record and another warning can suddenly be enough to get hardwarebanned.

[13:25] Amelie Emor: Dar, come on, you're talking about Person Y.

[13:25] Jamie Leodhais: dar, i doubt that she would have...

[13:26] Rin Tae: I only heared about her .. but you have all sorts of people in SL

[13:26] Amelie Emor: It doesn't matter. The point is Dar's point is a bit silly for thinking Person X/Person Y would ever AR him. He knows her well enough.

[13:26] Dar Innis: Person X was mad at me for abuse reporting her for treatening to crash a sim, distribute sim crashers, and encourage theri use. and, It was the Person X avatar I was dealing with. Person Y may be the main, but its still propper to refer to the actual avatar.

[13:26] Smoke Wijaya: Anyway, so noone ever found herself/hisself with a notification of an action taken on your account by LL?

[13:26] Tanya Neutron: unless by some strange

[13:27] Anonymous1: back in 05 a linden im'd me about littering....

[13:27] Anonymous1: thats it

[13:27] Tanya Neutron: no havent been

[13:27] Rin Tae: the majority of people who got ARs are still griefers . then yo uhave those adult content ARs that mostly lead to nothing

[13:28] Tanya Neutron: tho i dont read emails too many group notices

[13:28] Smoke Wijaya: Well, I have had quite some AR's ( and consequent actions taken)

[13:28] Dar Innis: be nice to hear about that end of it smoke

[13:28] Mercurius Jacobus: when did you stop e-raping children, Smoke?

[13:29] Smoke Wijaya: Within the email-notifications you get, the information about the "violation" is very very short....

[13:29] Dar Innis: whose initials are MJ here?

[13:29] Dar Innis: lol

[13:29] Smoke Wijaya: only a sim, a day...the violated community standard..and the action taken by LL.

[13:29] Dar Innis: would be nice to have it more verbose than that

[13:29] Triss Gray: and for a multi-offender it's very hard to keep track of for which offense this ar is :-)

[13:30] Tanya Neutron: what is the action usually?

[13:30] Smoke Wijaya: I had never been able to find out ( when LL did not also return a sign or something) what the actual violations constituted because of that ltitle info...

[13:30] Smoke Wijaya: Tanya, that ranged from 1 week, to 3 or 1 day suspensions...to warnings...

[13:30] Aeris Betsen: I was a villan for 24 h Violation: Community Standards: Assault, Safe Area , then i got an apologoze for it :))

[13:31] Rin Tae: howeve there was also the last one where a Linden investigated the AR and said, that it was nothing and a false report too

[13:31] Triss Gray: aeris: see; you're the troublemaker :-p

[13:31] Triss Gray never ever got ar'd

[13:31] Smoke Wijaya: So yeah, I think that within the information given in notification emails of actions taken on your account by LL, there should be way more informations stated....

[13:31] Aeris Betsen shakes head nop

[13:31] Smoke Wijaya: liek coordinates...the evidence they used to decide it indeed was a violation, like snapshots, chatlogs...

[13:31] Mercurius Jacobus is a total goodie-goodie

[13:32] Dar Innis: I've challenged people who say that LL does not investigate ARs to AR me on numerouse occasions. I dont know if they didn't take the challenge, but in any case nothing happened.

[13:32] Smoke Wijaya: because now, when you want to appeal such a decision, you have basically no idea what you have been accused off, and thus what you have to defend against.

[13:32] Rin Tae: plus a way to apeal by saying that it is not true .. a way to provide a chat log or any other evidence that the report might be false

[13:32] Dar Innis: well, at least if they gave you the time you could refer to your logs

[13:33] Tanya Neutron: i see the point here

[13:33] Amelie Emor: what about if you don't keep local chat logs?

[13:33] Amelie Emor: I don't.

[13:33] Smoke Wijaya: Dar...not so long ago I was ARd for violation of adult content policy at PH....they gave me a warning ( also an action, it is stated on your record...as said, only warnings can eventually also end up in a permaban)

[13:33] Mercurius Jacobus: Only bots, stalkers and Person Z. take chatlogs.

[13:33] Aeris Betsen wonders if they punish the false abuse reports ppl? Any of you heard anything of this case?

[13:33] Dar Innis: that sucks smoke.

[13:33] Smoke Wijaya: I appealed that decision Dar, and then LL came back to me that it indeed was a mistake.

[13:34] Triss Gray: mercurius? the log is on by default, so I think most persons do

[13:34] Dar Innis: well that is good

[13:34] Smoke Wijaya: that the only thing they saw was the dont snitch sign, which was free expression

[13:34] Smoke Wijaya: so they did NOT investigate the first time...

[13:34] Triss Gray: ? = :

[13:34] Smoke Wijaya: only when I appealed.

[13:34] Mercurius Jacobus: But it's not saved.

[13:34] Dar Innis: PH is stuck in a (mature) sim, but in practice its pretty much almost anything goes if its in the context of discussion.

[13:34] Triss Gray: it logs to a file on your pc by default

[13:34] Triss Gray: I think

[13:35] Aeris Betsen: you have to click the box Triss

[13:35] Amelie Emor: Aeris I wonder if they even have enough staff. I think that is part of the whole problem. The initial stage of AR'ing someone, filling in the form, is so easy and ripe for abuse. Coupled with the fact that emotions are usually felt more intensley online and people are somewhat more bold in their actions (they would happily fill in a AR online but not stand up for themselves IRL) it is little wonder the whole system is a mess.

[13:35] Smoke Wijaya: Dar, it does not matter, even when it was PG...I did not do anythign that remotely would be seen as "adult content".. see the defitniotn they made of adult content

[13:35] Dar Innis: the snitch sign clearly does not violate the adult content policy

[13:35] Smoke Wijaya: but as Rin already said, this also brings us to another flaw in this whole system....namely the ability to appeal.

[13:35] Rin Tae: I take chat logs .. but I tend to be active in RP and as I was a admin then, then the only possible way for conflict resolution was a chat log (I often asked a third person to provide it t odouble chek those given by the people asking for admin help, but I have never encountered changed logs) .. but if people came up with at least that much fairness in sucha small scale, it could be used for the whole of SL too .. the level might create some problems, but I think it is doable to give people the right to defend themselves against accusaitons

[13:36] Dar Innis: yes, i think the ability to appeal would be good. I'm all for that, and more detail given about the offense.

[13:36] Triss Gray: I also seem to recall something about sim logs that also contain chat

[13:36] Triss Gray: so I guess they already have the logs themselves

[13:36] Smoke Wijaya: Well, apparently, the possibility to appeal is there.....but it is not at all clear.

[13:36] Amelie Emor: I think the initial step has to be changed before you can get into appealing.

[13:37] Dar Innis: oh, there is an appeals process?

[13:37] Smoke Wijaya: They state in the notificationemail that you can appeal the decision by filing a support ticket....

[13:37] Smoke Wijaya: Hold on Dar :)

[13:37] Triss Gray: and it probably depends on pure chance whether someone will see the appeal or not

[13:37] Dar Innis: maybe some evangelism on how to appeal would be nice.

[13:37] Aeris Betsen: the sad part is when you are actualy perm ban and you can not log in the website and apeal

[13:37] Amelie Emor: So many people must get AR'd for lame ass things and petty arguments, if you fix the appeal process first all you are going to have is the same number of people appealing each and every decision.

[13:37] Smoke Wijaya: ...but when you get to the support portal, you will find that within the options you *have* to choose from as subject and such, you will not find any "appeal governance decision" or soemthing....

[13:37] Triss Gray: in their defence: I don't know of any cases where they permabanned prematurely

[13:38] Rin Tae: one possibility would be, that the one who fills out the AR need to provide evidence .. snapshots or chatlogs .. about why this person should be punished.. that is another RP admin way of doing things .. accusations of any kind need to be backed up by evidence

[13:38] Aeris Betsen: the decision is in pins ..they only ask you to call , never figure it why ..or if you call you get help or something.

[13:38] Amelie Emor: you can attach a snapshot currently

[13:38] Triss Gray: I called them once, via skype to the free us number

[13:38] Dar Innis: that does seem like a very valid problem smoke

[13:38] Triss Gray: only took 4 hours....

[13:38] Amelie Emor: and I guess you could copy and paste chatlogs into the box if you wanted to

[13:38] Dar Innis: maybe a proposal in jira would be a good idea

[13:38] Smoke Wijaya: Dar, yes, while it is very easy for them to insert a clear "appeal" option in there.

[13:38] Smoke Wijaya: Dar, that we will do yes

[13:38] Aeris Betsen: haha Triss , only 4 :)

[13:38] Rin Tae: yes.. but I don'T mean it that people 'can' do it .. but that it would be required

[13:39] Smoke Wijaya: but we wanted to await this discussion still..maybe some more good ideas come along.

[13:39] Amelie Emor: sorry, read that wrong, I see.

[13:39] Smoke Wijaya: There simply should be a simple clear "appeal" option in the support ticket system.

[13:39] Triss Gray: hey, let's do an experiment :-) let's all ar each other and see what comes of it :-)

[13:40] Smoke Wijaya: please do not with me...I am not sure how many lives I have left :)

[13:40] Triss Gray: russian ar roulette

[13:40] Anonymous1: please no one ar me....

[13:40] Rin Tae: nuuuu.. they might actually act on it

[13:40] Amelie Emor: I am constantly tempted to AR Smoke for never getting any of my jokes.

[13:40] Dar Innis: Well, I really wish there were no need for any sort of AR system or bans. Unfortunately, there is. The Linden system isn't perfect, I'm all for improving it.

[13:40] Triss Gray: :-p

[13:40] Smoke Wijaya: Amelie, you can slap me, but ARng me is lame :P

[13:40] Aeris Betsen: haha Smoke , your cat lifes running out?

[13:41] Smoke Wijaya: Hello Ryn welcome, please join us if you want.

[13:41] Amelie Emor: He said lets AR each other...you're the first one that came to mind innit :P

[13:41] Rin Tae: yes.. there will .. sadly .. always be the need for some sort of 'police' system ... the internet way too often brings out the worse in people

[13:41] Dar Innis: I AR amelie all the time for, um.... (can't think of anything)... being cheesy.

[13:41] Triss Gray: didn't you make a smoke2 wijaja when you first came here as backup? :-)

[13:41] Amelie Emor: Back off Dar, this isn't PH.

[13:41] Ryn Hax: thanks

[13:41] Triss Gray: here as in "in sl"

[13:41] Smoke Wijaya: No triss, but I do have an older account, Smoke Fallon...but this account, the wijaya one, has too much hagning on it, like different grouplands...

[13:41] Dar Innis: OK, I'll try to act more gouda

[13:42] Dar Innis: Smoke Wijaya has even made it into online text books

[13:42] Smoke Wijaya: Well, I guess is hard for people that have not gone through that whole system yet of abuse reporting, getting a ban or something, trying to appeal....

[13:42] Mercurius Jacobus: Isn't there a dedicated slDM treasurer avatar?

[13:42] Aeris Betsen: So what you say Triss is that all of us need to do a nr2 just in case hmm:) is that safe ?

[13:42] Jamie Leodhais: if you get banned from a place, will the lindens factor that in when looking at ARs?

[13:42] Smoke Wijaya: ...but if you followed it a bit now, do you think that an clear simple way to appeal with the by LL dedicated place for that should exist?

[13:42] Anonymous1: how many ar's do LL receive a day and is it realistic to expect them to give them all due dilligence?

[13:43] Smoke Wijaya: Anonymous1, not sure what the amount is.,.but it are a lot indeed

[13:43] Amelie Emor: of course it's not realistic, not with the system as it is so easy to abuse in the first instance

[13:43] Rin Tae: LL is getting a lot of them .. so getting the actuall report process to the point that will wipe out all the silly reports would be a good first step in setting up such systems

[13:43] Amelie Emor: if they made the initial stage of filling out an AR much, much harder that would at least solve some of the issues. People would be less likely to be arsed to fill in the form.

[13:43] Smoke Wijaya: but if there is not enough people to check them all, dont you think it would be better to be cautious with acting, instead of simply acting on all...espeically when you do not have a clear appeal process in place?

[13:43] Dar Innis: I would say yes Smoke, there should be a clear and straightforward appeals process

[13:44] Anonymous1: I have heard, but only 2nd hand , that LL do get tough with hate groups

[13:44] Smoke Wijaya: I know Anonymous1...kind of...

[13:44] Anonymous1: thats why they tend to show up on the other open sim based grids

[13:44] Triss Gray: hehe, I can't help but think of the wads of drama these people will have to wade through if they'll read every AR and appeal in detail :-)

[13:44] Smoke Wijaya: ...but this in part is also because of the many abuse reprots that my fellow antifa comrades send out....

[13:44] Mercurius Jacobus: They should have a Cry Wolf system, whereby they ignore all ARs from avatars who have made x many ARs that didn't result in anything.

[13:45] Smoke Wijaya: I always refused to AR even the most horrible nazi's...

[13:45] Anonymous1: maybe they do....

[13:45] Dar Innis: Well, LL clearly state in the community guidelines that they don't tolerate hate groups.

[13:45] Smoke Wijaya: but many of my comrades do think it is ok to get people off SL by abuse reporting.

[13:45] Anonymous1: they have also clearly stated that they would get rid of lag and make the grid stable

[13:45] Smoke Wijaya: lol

[13:45] Triss Gray: and they promised cake too

[13:45] Rin Tae: it is not in the best interest of LL to have them around .. they fight to give SL a positive image already without nazis runnign around freely

[13:46] Ryn Hax: is there anywhere LL publishes what the cases they acted on ?

[13:46] Triss Gray: but we all know the cake's a lie

[13:46] Smoke Wijaya: Ryn, not really...

[13:46] Smoke Wijaya: ...they had/have this police blotter...

[13:46] Anonymous1: the police blotter went out a long time ago

[13:46] Smoke Wijaya: ..but that did not show all the actions taken...nor much info.

[13:46] Dar Innis: I think its my duty to AR those who are clearly violating the TOS and making the SL experience less enjoyable

[13:46] Ryn Hax: then how do you know what they will or will not act on?

[13:46] Smoke Wijaya: by experience...

[13:47] Amelie Emor: Making the SL experience less enjoyable for you though Dar. Your opinion of what is enjoyable is subjective. They might be having a wail of a time.

[13:47] Smoke Wijaya: that's another thing...it would be good if there would come a public database where people can dump their "files" of accusations/actions taken that were clearly unjust.

[13:47] Ryn Hax: the TOS is so broad it to justify anything or nothing ... defacto tho what do they act on?

[13:47] Triss Gray: well, unless it's a very very grave offence, I tend to just hit the ignore button and freeze the person if I can

[13:47] Smoke Wijaya: otherwise, and understandably, people will indeed keep stating "how do you know that LL does not investigate"

[13:47] Rin Tae: or tp away

[13:47] Triss Gray: usually works better then an ar anyway

[13:47] Mercurius Jacobus: The slDM website could host one, Smoke

[13:47] Nolligan Nino: sit on an object and go afk for 10 mins is another good option

[13:48] Dar Innis: well, clearly violate the tos and making my experience less enjoyable have to go together.

[13:48] Smoke Wijaya: Yes Mercurius, was thinking about that.

[13:48] Amelie Emor: Exactly Triss, for every person that offends me they don't offend 20/30 otherpeople mebbes. Who am I to let my own opinion have a say as to whether they are allowed in SL or not? I am not that important.

[13:48] Triss Gray: mm, but who will filter that database for "fake" or "wrong" entries?

[13:48] Amelie Emor: Mute is far more effective.

[13:48] Triss Gray: and I'm not easily offended anyway :-)

[13:48] Smoke Wijaya: Ryn, they act on many things, from racist speech, to claims of underage, to claims on adult content violation, on "disturbing the peace"....etc etc

[13:48] Dar Innis: well, if LL does not investigate, everyone here can AR me right now

[13:49] Dar Innis: just give me time to transfer my lindens to my alt

[13:49] Triss Gray: because if we point the finger to ll, we need to take the same precautions as we want them to do to have that data correct

[13:49] Rin Tae: the problem is .. that sometimes LL investigate and sometimes it looks like they don't .. and I am not sure that this is a healthy ground to grow some trust into LL and how they react to ARs .. there is too much 'maybe' in it

[13:49] Anonymous1: is it true that the governance team in LL has been disbanded?

[13:49] Triss Gray: hehe, I'll file as "other" and fill in: these darn lindens never read this anyway :-)

[13:49] Ryn Hax: so mainly the things that would get LL bad press if it came out it was going on in SL ?

[13:49] Smoke Wijaya: Triss, we are not only laying blame with LL are we...but more with the structure and the use of it that it enables..without any checks on it.

[13:50] Jamie Leodhais: careful dar, too many ar's and they can ip ban you and hardware ban you and all your accounts

[13:50] Aeris Betsen: damn Dar , and if you actualy get ban , will not be mad that you test it on your av?

[13:50] Amelie Emor: Ryn...if you had a gazillion abuse reports and no way to possibly deal with them all, wouldn't you focus on those areas too?

[13:50] Smoke Wijaya: Ryn, well, I would not even draw that conclusion yet...

[13:50] Dar Innis: well, if i dont test it on my own avatar, what value is the challenge?

[13:50] Triss Gray: smoke: sure, but I'm just saying that if we want to gather data on ar's, we need to exercise the same caution with the data in it that we would want from others

[13:50] Dar Innis: and, how can i be mad at others for doing what i ask

[13:50] Triss Gray: eg a review process of the data enetered for quality

[13:51] Amelie Emor: There is no challenge.

[13:51] Jamie Leodhais: well admittedly dar is walking the talk

[13:51] Smoke Wijaya: Ryn, they in my view are more like taking things to the letter...and that is nasty when the rules are so broad.

[13:51] Ryn Hax: not saying what they should or should not do .. just was wanting to know what they are defacto doing

[13:52] Aeris Betsen: I will not do so, i care for my av , reason why i dont make alts or other of that sort. I think you do care about yours also Dar , no way i will Ar to test the system.

[13:52] Smoke Wijaya: Ok, even when we lay aside for a moment the claim that LL does not investigate the ARs, or at least with some/many does not....it would still be reasonable I think to have a clear wway to appeal in the support portal, the very place where LL points you to in the notificationemail of ana ction taken on your account.....?

[13:52] Amelie Emor: A really easy way to reduce the number of false reports, allowing linden labs to concentrate of dealing with possibly more authentic reports is to charge 50L per report. They charge you for getting partnered in SL, double for "divorce", why not charge you to complain as well?

[13:52] Triss Gray: byt what about the pennyless noobs then :-)

[13:52] Dar Innis: well thanks aeris

[13:52] Amelie Emor: fuck them

[13:52] Anonymous1: paying for justice?

[13:52] Amelie Emor: innit

[13:53] Triss Gray: having to camp to file an ar is a bit weird

[13:53] Dar Innis: actually, i like that idea amelie

[13:53] Dar Innis: that is an excellent idea

[13:53] Aeris Betsen: haha Ame , VIVA la Revolution :)

[13:53] Amelie Emor: it's a logical solution, even if it's an unfair one. The system at present is unfair. I wasn't actually suggesting it seriously, mostly I am just joking around.

[13:53] Triss Gray: so only justice for the "have's"

[13:53] Jamie Leodhais: yeah, but upload 10 dollars us, have five alts make ars against the person of your choice and they are gauranteed to die. that's horrible

[13:53] Smoke Wijaya: yes...consider what you would think when you come to the police in Rl to report a theft or soemthing...and they first want you to pay...lol

[13:54] Triss Gray: in some countries it works that way :-)

[13:54] Smoke Wijaya: next moment I will be behind bars because I dragged the officer across the table...

[13:54] Amelie Emor: Jamie, no system will ever be perfect. Like I said, I wasn't being serious. You all need to relax your shoulders a bit.

[13:54] Triss Gray: a fire you say? is the fire dept calendar in that fire?

[13:54] Smoke Wijaya: Sorry for thr pasting, but: " Ok, even when we lay aside for a moment the claim that LL does not inestigate the ARs, or at least with some/many does not....it would still be reasonable I think to have a clear wway to appeal in the support portal, the very place where LL points you to in the notificationemail of ana ction taken on your account.....?"

[13:55] Rin Tae: no.. paying for reports will be hard for new people without money .. and jsutice is and should be the same for everyone .. so I would rather say, that the one makign the report should be required to provide evidence ... this will reduce the number of fake reports and if the LLs have all chat log data then it would be easy to compare the log and weed out more .. but the hurdle would be high enough to stop a lot false reports then I think

[13:55] Jamie Leodhais shrugs and relaxes her shoulders

[13:55] Amelie Emor: Some kind of deterrent would do it though, in all seriousness. A fine if you file a false report or suspension of account for three days if you don't have Lindens.

[13:55] Amelie Emor: Rin. Again, I wasn't being serious

[13:55] Amelie Emor wishes she hadn't bothered

[13:55] Ryn Hax: I am perhaps a little behind on this .. but does LL publish what procedures they use for an AR and... in the case of them taking action .. is there a chance to respond?

[13:55] Dar Innis: I agree smoke, if appealing is not a clear process on the web site, it needs improvement

[13:55] Triss Gray: "a" chance, yes

[13:55] Smoke Wijaya: Ryn, right, we might have been talking about that before you came in...

[13:55] Triss Gray: if you're persistent enough to find it

[13:56] Ryn Hax: ah ok

[13:56] Smoke Wijaya: ....there is not really known how they shift through the ARs...

[13:56] Aeris Betsen: yes Rin , what about the voice? When I got AR , I was talking on voice

[13:56] Triss Gray: it's hidden somewhere along the support options

[13:56] Jamie Leodhais: heh, what about a hot potato ar system? if you are found to be making false claims, you get slapped with an ar for dishonest reporting?

[13:56] Triss Gray: and apparently with some actions they take you can't access that support portal anyway

[13:56] Rin Tae: no worries .. Amelie .. but you can bet, that if oyu would post this idea in the SL forums, you would have many people start scraming for it .. the same ones who like to ban everyone but themselves from SL since they are the most important people here in their thinking ..

[13:56] Smoke Wijaya: but Ryn, when an action is taken on your account, you will get a notificationemail...which will state the date, sim and community standard you violated, plus the action taken....

[13:56] Amelie Emor: I agree with Smoke that a clear appeals procedure should be in place. I believ the initial stage of the AR needs to be rectified first. I still think there will be problems with any system though as long as you leave it to everyone to have a voice (I'm not suggesting not doing this)...people are kinda retarded, there will always be people out there to abuse things.

[13:57] Smoke Wijaya: ...this email also contains the statement that you can appeal Ryn...and they point to the support portal to file a ticket....

[13:57] Rin Tae: yes.. voice isn'T recorded and it is harder and more difficult to record it so the evidence system would fail here very clearly

[13:57] Ryn Hax: interesting

[13:57] Amelie Emor: Rin, I am not one of those people so you can relax. I will never AR someone.

[13:57] Triss Gray: lool this will lead to the question "could you please offend me in writing, kthx"

[13:57] Smoke Wijaya: Ryn, but with that support portal, there is not a clear option to choose from the list from which you *have* to choose, that pertains to 'appealing"....

[13:57] Ryn Hax: given that "proof" in SL is a difficult thing to do either for or against a claim .. that must be very difficult

[13:58] Amelie Emor: afk

[13:58] Rin Tae: oh.. sure! .. but for anyone wanting to loose any rest of faith into humanity, .. the SL forums are a good place to start ^^

[13:58] Triss Gray: but anyway, even if you forget about the whole "proof" thing

[13:58] Dar Innis: the forums for most online games are like that rin

[13:58] Triss Gray: it's clear that they do not *try* to check on most of it

[13:58] Ryn Hax: well LL would not act without reasonable proof would they?

[13:59] Rin Tae: I know ^^ .. that is the forum desese

[13:59] Triss Gray: I mean, if someone ar's an sldm'er for adult policy violation referring to some signs

[13:59] Smoke Wijaya: Ryn, and that is what they *do* do

[13:59] Dar Innis: well, part of the problem is that they dont need reasonable proof rin.

[13:59] Smoke Wijaya: brb, I will give you one example...the one I earlier on talked about, but now with the actual emails of LL.

[13:59] Triss Gray: then they should at least look at the included screenshot to see if the sign IS violating

[14:01] Ryn Hax: <- waves to the hidden Lindens lurking in God mode

[14:01] Tanya Neutron: real problem here i see it now

[14:02] Ryn Hax: I think I am safe unless bad jokes are against the TOS

[14:02] Triss Gray: if they were I'd be permabanned al ong tme ago anyway :-)

[14:02] Dar Innis: depeds on he joke content

[14:03] Triss Gray: but well, one has to watch his/her words, if you read about that dude that got arrested for twittering a joke about blowing up an airport

[14:03] Dar Innis: yeah tanya?

[14:03] Triss Gray: in the uk

[14:03] mykos Inglewood: what's the topic everybody?

[14:03] Dar Innis: well, threats like that are not funny. people need to learn that threats should never be made or taken lightly.

[14:03] Triss Gray: mykos: we were discussing the "randomness" of the ar system, how it could be made better, etc

[14:04] Triss Gray: Dar: ok, but some "threats" clearly aren't "threats"

[14:04] Amelie Emor: It wasn't a threat. It was a joke.

[14:04] mykos Inglewood: okay im just checkign to make sure

[14:04] mykos Inglewood: nobody here from philosophy sim

[14:04] Rin Tae: some time ago, we had the idea of using the AR systems shrortcomings to actually protest it .. by fillign ARs against silly things or lindens clearly stating in each of them that htis report is a protest against the problems of the system as it is ... however the neccessery scale of the reports would have been beyond our abilites and it seem to be against the guideliens too so anyone participating would be in the risk of being acted on by LL .. and it is much to ask this form people when askign them to do it

[14:04] mykos Inglewood: philosophy siland

[14:04] Anonymous1: what training do the lindens have on this?

[14:04] Ryn Hax: has anyone here had direct contact with any of the Lindens about this topic? .. just curious

[14:04] Tanya Neutron: yes you all are right, too many immature people making false claims, yet some real griefers out there too, so, yes

[14:05] Anonymous1: or are they just lay people acting as judge and jury?

[14:05] mykos Inglewood: okay i have a suggestion

[14:05] Triss Gray: i guess the latter

[14:05] Triss Gray: "standard 1st line support rep" types

[14:05] mykos Inglewood: i tried to do this at philosophy island they just about kicked me out

[14:05] Anonymous1: I guess that too

[14:05] mykos Inglewood: we need our own sims and laws

[14:05] Dar Innis: do what mykos?

[14:05] mykos Inglewood: linden labs is like one big government

[14:05] mykos Inglewood: and we are at their whim

[14:05] Smoke Wijaya: back

[14:05] Anonymous1: they are gods not government

[14:06] Dar Innis: linden labs is a business

[14:06] mykos Inglewood: it's not democracy

[14:06] Anonymous1: governments can be overthrown

[14:06] Triss Gray: federalization of sl?

[14:06] mykos Inglewood: that's even worst

[14:06] Mercurius Jacobus: Dictatorship of the proprietariat.

[14:06] Dar Innis: of course its not a democracy

[14:06] mykos Inglewood: we need to come together

[14:06] mykos Inglewood: we cant sway them

[14:06] mykos Inglewood: to see us

[14:06] mykos Inglewood: to listen to us

[14:06] Triss Gray awaits someone singing the internationale

[14:06] mykos Inglewood: but we need order ourselves

[14:06] Dar Innis: if you want an democratic virtual world, build it.

[14:06] mykos Inglewood: we have no order ourselves

[14:06] mykos Inglewood: i am

[14:06] mykos Inglewood: i need your help, lol

[14:06] mykos Inglewood: that's why im here

[14:07] Anonymous1: LL aren't even answerable to their shreholders - becuase they don't have any

[14:07] mykos Inglewood: tehy are gods

[14:07] Ryn Hax: LL is a corporation .. and will try to keep its head down as far as the press is concerned ... perhaps the AR is as more about protecting them than the people involved

[14:07] Dar Innis: here, best we can do is lobby the lindens to make things more transparent and to institute some democratic policies

[14:07] Mercurius Jacobus: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zk69e1Vcmvg

[14:07] Rin Tae: SL as it is can'T be a democracy and it is going nowehere to expect it to be one .. it is not build to be one so a democratic virtual world can only be created in the furture with a system, that is geared towards the possibility of many different ways to run and govern it

[14:07] Mercurius Jacobus: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zk69e1Vcmvg

[14:07] mykos Inglewood: no listen u nkow how to effect a corporation

[14:07] mykos Inglewood: capitalize and greed

[14:07] mykos Inglewood: not by talking

[14:07] mykos Inglewood: by more money

[14:07] Smoke Wijaya: This is not about getting a parliament within SL...but the clear fact that we create this world, this emergent thing called "the second life world" does mean we, the users/creators, should have a diferent relation with the platform provider than with typical serviceproviders or games.

[14:08] mykos Inglewood: we matter when we control sims and money

[14:08] Dar Innis: I can see that smoke

[14:08] mykos Inglewood: we need our own socitey and order and rules

[14:08] Anonymous1: so they only listen to the FIC?

[14:08] Smoke Wijaya: Anyways, to give one clear example of LL not investigating but simply acting on the most silly claims:

[14:08] Smoke Wijaya: "notificationemail:

Dear Smoke Wijaya,

 

This email is notification of action regarding your Second Life account,

Smoke Wijaya, for violation of the Second Life Terms of Service or

Community Standards. The violation in question occurred on December 24,

2009 in the region of Nuba.

 

Violation: Community Standards: Indecency, Adult Content

 

Appeal Process:

The decision to suspend your Second Life access was reached after

investigation of your use of the Second Life software and service. If you

would like to appeal your suspension, you may contact Second Life Support,

in writing, at the address below:

 

Second Life Support

Linden Lab

945 Battery Street

San Francisco, CA 94111

 

You may also appeal electronically by filing a support ticket at

http://www.secondlife.com/support "

 

[14:08] Smoke Wijaya: (sorry for the walls of text)

[14:08] mykos Inglewood: thats' why we need oru own laws, own unions to fight

[14:08] Smoke Wijaya: My Appeal:

"I want to appeal the decision for taking action against my SL account, Smoke Wijaya. A warning has been issued for "Violation: Community Standards: Indecency, Adult Content" in the region of Nuba on the 24th dec 09.

I know the definitions of what is designated as adult content and to my knowledge I have not acted in violation of these. There is nothing I, nor others that were present, can think of that would meet these definitions. I fear that the person in question wrote a false abuse report from personal grievances. So I am asking you, LL, to investigate the AR better and I want to know what actions of me actually violated the community standards that prompted you to act on the AR.

I am a paying customer and an active user of SL for years now and I do not feel like loosing my account because some people feel like settling scores with me through fake abuse reports."

 

[14:08] Smoke Wijaya: Their solution (first time the react back to an appeal of me):

"Solution:

Hi Smoke,

You're right; I don't think the warning was proper.

The only thing I see going on at that parcel is your "Don't Snitch" sign, which is free expression.

I've noted the warning in your record to prevent it from weighing on any future Governance actions. I apologize for your receiving it.

-- x "

[14:09] mykos Inglewood: this is the lindens world

[14:09] mykos Inglewood: they can do whatever they wish

[14:09] mykos Inglewood: im just saying

[14:09] mykos Inglewood: let's make our own

[14:09] mykos Inglewood: and make them listen

[14:09] mykos Inglewood: and they will

[14:09] mykos Inglewood: if we're organized

[14:09] Smoke Wijaya: you are just saying .. hehe

[14:10] Smoke Wijaya: yeah, and we are already shouting that for several years :)

[14:10] mykos Inglewood: im just sayign what?

[14:10] mykos Inglewood: but do u know who i am

[14:10] mykos Inglewood: i control a good portion of the sl stock markets

[14:10] Ryn Hax: how long did it take them to unfreeze your account Smoke?

[14:10] mykos Inglewood: they'll isten to me

[14:10] Smoke Wijaya: we deny their 'right" for this you see...because of the radical change in provider/user relation...when considering usercreated worlds/spaces....

[14:10] mykos Inglewood: but this is all chaos

[14:10] mykos Inglewood: this is anarchy

[14:10] Amelie Emor: mykos you're wrong about noone being ehre from Philosophy Island.

[14:11] Amelie Emor: You are a nutter.

[14:11] Smoke Wijaya: ...espeicxally also because that emergent world that got created by the users...is in turn monetized and used as product by LL, the Second Life product....

[14:11] Smoke Wijaya: while where this world is build on, by us, is their othe rproduct, the SL grid product.

[14:11] mykos Inglewood: yes i was checkign for you philsophy island guys i hpe u dont think as they do

[14:11] Triss Gray: so you're a capitalist anarchist then?

[14:11] mykos Inglewood: or i gotta go

[14:11] Rin Tae: people are makign their own worlds already .. some more successuful then others, but the investment into makign them is still too big for private persons to shoulder .. so there is the need for a provider of virtual world software .. but then .. the entire metavers might turn itno small not connected islands and the idea of a big conected virtual world might get lost on the way .. so I guess that this is a topic that deserves a discussion in itself sometime

[14:11] mykos Inglewood: looks like im about to cut this short

[14:11] mykos Inglewood: lol

[14:11] mykos Inglewood: that's the only way

[14:12] mykos Inglewood: otherwise this is pointless

[14:12] mykos Inglewood: lindens wont listen to anybody unless they got money

[14:12] mykos Inglewood: and lots of it

[14:12] mykos Inglewood: in teh form of sims

[14:12] Dar Innis: thing is, people agreed to contribute their user created content to a creatice commons share alike (if i recall correctly) licsence.

[14:12] Smoke Wijaya: Ryn, my account on this occasion was not suspended, but merely got a warning.

[14:12] Anonymous1: even they don't always listen - just read prokofy's blog....

[14:13] mykos Inglewood: btw amelie im creating my own philsophy sim, but it wont be like philsophy island

[14:13] mykos Inglewood: lol

[14:13] Smoke Wijaya: but also warnings are actions...and as you see from her reply at the end, weigh in with future actions they take.

[14:13] Amelie Emor: who the shit cares, mykos

[14:13] mykos Inglewood: u dont i see u stil sitting around not doing anything

[14:13] mykos Inglewood: lol

[14:13] mykos Inglewood: so what happens now?

[14:13] Rin Tae: I think ther is something in the ToS about it .. I remember someone actualyl askign in the forums if LL can use user created contetn in theri advertisment and one of hte replys pointed towards a TOS article, that said, that LL is indeed allowed to sue content in advertisment as they please .. but I think they give the creater the right to opt out of this

[14:14] Ryn Hax: nods .. so it appears they issue none fatal warnings in order to draw out a response perhaps and to save them time in doing any investigation

[14:14] Smoke Wijaya: Sure Rin, they are alowed to within their ToS and probably also within Rl law...

[14:14] Tanya Neutron: quite simply, smoke, if they refer to a support portal etc as they do in their email notification, and there is no clear way defined there , that in itself is a clear cause that the system must be modifeied

[14:14] Amelie Emor: Since when did I say I wanted to do anything? I'm happy in SL as is.

[14:14] mykos Inglewood: my magazine is now going political, finance and i like women so it's stayign fashion

[14:14] mykos Inglewood: so one way we can make a difference

[14:14] mykos Inglewood: is making people aware

[14:15] mykos Inglewood: of the issues

[14:15] mykos Inglewood: so i offer my services

[14:15] mykos Inglewood: free of charge

[14:15] Amelie Emor: this guy has the biggest ego in the entire world. I don't even think the pixelated and ever expanding universe of SL is enough to contain it.

[14:15] Smoke Wijaya: Ryn, no, they dont do the investigation when not appealed on it...and when they would have that as modus operandi, they would make it clear how and easy to appeal as well as heavily communicate by LL the need for appealing when an action has been taken

[14:15] mykos Inglewood: let's let people know about the issues

[14:15] mykos Inglewood: amelie can't help any of us

[14:15] mykos Inglewood: so people know what the problems are

[14:16] Amelie Emor: I don't want to help any of you?

[14:16] Anonymous1: the problem is that to most peolle it's not a problem

[14:16] Amelie Emor: What on earth are you on about? Stop griefing, mykos.

[14:16] Smoke Wijaya: Right, Tanya, I think so as well...is strange, but it hoinestly is not there....

[14:16] Smoke Wijaya: I will tomorrow or so go in that portal again and make screencap of the options...

[14:17] Amelie Emor: that would be good smoke, like you said it's hard to talk about the appeal process when you've never had to do it yourself

[14:17] mykos Inglewood: well generally things dont matter to me until it happens in my own backyard

[14:17] Smoke Wijaya: will also post this log on our website, but iof anyone is against publishing his/her nae, we will remove the names

[14:17] Amelie Emor: I can't visualise how difficult it is

[14:17] Ryn Hax: makes sense as most people who are guilty of offenses would not reply .. tho one would think that the age of your avi would have justified at least a cursory check ....

[14:17] mykos Inglewood: and that's the problem you all are talkign about

[14:17] Ryn Hax: most avies by the time they get to 1000 days plus or x number of hours will have got into trouble already if they were prone to doing so

[14:17] Rin Tae: oh.. and if you make screenshots of the options then put them into a blog post on our site .. it would make a good pos there

[14:18] Amelie Emor: I'm off. I'm not wasting a mute on him. Thanks for the discussion all, it wasfun. Ciao ciao.

[14:18] Tanya Neutron: was at a club the other day, conversation was about how LL does nothing even when Ars are filed, in the context of abusing women... but no one really had any interaction, just talk

[14:18] mykos Inglewood: well philsophy ilsand dont like me they barred me from speaking

[14:19] Smoke Wijaya: Ryn, I am not the most nice person, nor the most "good" one...i have had actions taken on my account that were reasonable (with ToS and community standards in mind)...but even then, there should be an appeal possibility.

[14:19] mykos Inglewood: i think their is no proper enforcement

[14:19] mykos Inglewood: we should have cops

[14:19] mykos Inglewood: in sl

[14:19] mykos Inglewood: they got enough money on my sims we'll have a police force

[14:19] Smoke Wijaya: (althugh I have to state with that, that I only griefed fascist/racist political organisations, most from RL)

[14:19] Anonymous1: ipersonally i would not like to see 'cops' in sl

[14:20] mykos Inglewood: well you dont like abuse, neither do i

[14:20] Smoke Wijaya: mykos, no, we don't need cops...lol

[14:20] mykos Inglewood: dotn think of them as cops

[14:20] Smoke Wijaya: I will.

[14:20] mykos Inglewood: think of them as linden labs or a private force

[14:20] Anonymous1: a workers militia? haha

[14:20] mykos Inglewood: protecting us from abuse

[14:20] mykos Inglewood: iw as at philosphy island

[14:20] Smoke Wijaya: mykos, I don't need that, nor can they

[14:20] mykos Inglewood: invting friends over

[14:21] Anonymous1: and who will police the police?

[14:21] mykos Inglewood: and they was over there taklign about blowjobs

[14:21] Ryn Hax: abuse is a thorny issue .. even in RL hard to prove .. and well on impossible here

[14:21] Tanya Neutron: good smoke:)

[14:21] mykos Inglewood: the law will

[14:21] mykos Inglewood: the covenants will

[14:21] Smoke Wijaya: mykos, there are group of residents that behave this way, that patrol sims and try to conbat griefers ( through abuse reproting and orbiting)

[14:21] mykos Inglewood: linden labs tos

[14:21] Anonymous1: hmmm... doesn't work in rl

[14:21] mykos Inglewood: will

[14:21] Anonymous1: so why here?

[14:21] Smoke Wijaya: and in tyurn they have become the biggest assholes on the grid mykos.

[14:21] Rin Tae: cops .. a police force for SL would actually require a full system of checks and ballences for them as well as a system where laws are made and not only enforced agaisnt the residents but against hte police as well .. so the only police force that might not turn nto a enfocement tool for the rulers is one controlled by democratic systems .. and this might be some way off fr SL or any virtual world

[14:21] mykos Inglewood: well nobody is above the sl tos

[14:21] mykos Inglewood: u know that

[14:21] Smoke Wijaya: Mykos: http://sldemocraticmovement.org/forum/vigilantes_tights_secret_database_...

[14:22] mykos Inglewood: we need a checks adn balance system to check tthem and to check those that check them

[14:22] Ryn Hax: I think LL has its hands full policing the things that would be news worthy .. i.e. child porn .. hate groups .. etc etc .. let alone getting into largely interpersonal stuff like abuse

[14:23] Anonymous1: I agree with Ryn

[14:23] Mercurius Jacobus: mykos, google thr n+1 problem.

[14:23] Smoke Wijaya: :)

[14:23] Smoke Wijaya: They don't have their hands full on hategroups...

[14:23] Smoke Wijaya: ...not now, nor ever had...

[14:23] Smoke Wijaya: the most they banned were us antifa...

[14:24] Smoke Wijaya: us, being me and comrades...not slDM...

[14:24] mykos Inglewood: we need to build our own world

[14:24] Smoke Wijaya: but yes, they have acted also on the hategroups

[14:24] mykos Inglewood: and own laws

[14:24] Triss Gray: I never met one of these so called "cops" who wasn't an outright idiot and/or jerk

[14:24] Smoke Wijaya: also with stupid rules, like banning all and every use of a swastika symbol or celticcross

[14:24] mykos Inglewood: that's why linden labs gave us sl

[14:24] mykos Inglewood: so we could

[14:24] mykos Inglewood: but we haven't done it orderly or correct

[14:24] Smoke Wijaya: completely forgetting the different culturs that uses these symbols...

[14:24] mykos Inglewood: to show them we mean biz

[14:24] mykos Inglewood: then we can change things

[14:25] mykos Inglewood: they wil lhave no choice but to change things

[14:25] mykos Inglewood: for the good of everybdoy

[14:25] Smoke Wijaya: but is a good example of them not thinking contextual...but wanting some kind of 1/0 thinking/rule....

[14:25] Mercurius Jacobus: It would have stopped The Zodiac killer, though

[14:25] Ryn Hax: I think you are being a little optomistic ther mykos

[14:25] mykos Inglewood: darn my rent due in 1 day

[14:25] mykos Inglewood: and it's expensive

[14:25] mykos Inglewood: we can't even fight tier raises

[14:25] mykos Inglewood: not optimistic

[14:26] mykos Inglewood: we are sl

[14:26] Smoke Wijaya: mykos, and that was partly because people only thoiught about their own bankaccount....

[14:26] Smoke Wijaya: in that case of the openspace pricehike....

[14:26] mykos Inglewood: they nothing without us

[14:26] Ryn Hax: they own the grid .. they can set the rules as they see fit ..

[14:26] mykos Inglewood: no they can't

[14:26] mykos Inglewood: if we wont pay

[14:26] mykos Inglewood: we have no order

[14:26] Anonymous1: again Ryn has hit the nail on the head

[14:26] mykos Inglewood: tht's why they can do it

[14:26] Smoke Wijaya: when we tried to table the fact that this ability of LL to simply unilaterally change the contract is within the ToS, we were almost booed away mykos.

[14:27] Ryn Hax: if they start banning every 10th avi.. you are right it would hurt them financially

[14:27] mykos Inglewood: we can sway them to how we want it, if united

[14:27] Ryn Hax: but they don't

[14:27] mykos Inglewood: they not crazy

[14:27] mykos Inglewood: they still biz people

[14:27] Smoke Wijaya: Anonymous1, Ryn, of course they can do what they want....but that does not mean it is the right way...or that there is no other better way, or no way for users to influence the way it takes....

[14:27] mykos Inglewood: and u know the old rule of biz ryn

[14:27] mykos Inglewood: im one of sl's most successful biz man

[14:27] Mercurius Jacobus: Dictatorship of the Proprietoriat...

[14:27] Smoke Wijaya: lol mykos.

[14:27] mykos Inglewood: you gotta listen to yoru customer

[14:28] Anonymous1: I agree that it's not necessarily right or proper, it's just realpolitik

[14:28] Ryn Hax: if they started seeing negative articles on SL in more papers .. they would adjust .. its a line they walk

[14:28] mykos Inglewood: we under this government that is linden labs

[14:28] mykos Inglewood: i have one of the biggest magazines

[14:28] Smoke Wijaya: Ryn, yeah, nothing will succeeda nymore withoout a big media attention....

[14:28] Rin Tae: actually the TOS is not court proof by any means .. so while they can do as they pelase as they have given themselves the right to, it is not like they are right to do so ... so far .. many cases where people protested againt their decissions have been so helplessly unorgenised, that it could never lead to anything ... but then again .. the possibilties of SL as it is are limited in this field anyways

[14:29] Smoke Wijaya: ...all our life is mediated...

[14:29] mykos Inglewood: they will listen but they can ban u for no reason, that's not good

[14:29] mykos Inglewood: we need money and media

[14:29] mykos Inglewood: we need about 1000 sims

[14:29] mykos Inglewood: orderly

[14:29] mykos Inglewood: under one covenant

[14:29] mykos Inglewood: who's with me

[14:29] Smoke Wijaya: mykos, we already can get 1000 sims....

[14:30] Smoke Wijaya: and no, I will not just leave this world....I want it to change...

[14:30] mykos Inglewood: we need the same order on each sim

[14:30] Smoke Wijaya: that does not mean that at the same time we cannot build soemthing else next to it to help speed up the opening up ( if that ever comes)

[14:30] mykos Inglewood: and enforcement

[14:30] Rin Tae: yes.. leaving is the easy way out ... and I like it too much here as well ^^

[14:30] mykos Inglewood: court systems

[14:30] Smoke Wijaya: mykos...that sounds horrible

[14:30] mykos Inglewood: we can't change anything

[14:30] mykos Inglewood: divided

[14:31] mykos Inglewood: im sorry but

[14:31] mykos Inglewood: that's how it works

[14:31] Smoke Wijaya: "the same order on each sim" ... it immediately asks for an overseeing organisation with executive power and enforcement agenda

[14:31] mykos Inglewood: that's what we need

[14:31] Smoke Wijaya: 'that's how it works"has never been a good arguemnt for me....

[14:31] mykos Inglewood: this is chaos

[14:31] Triss Gray: A 1000 sims under 1 mykos? akes to "ordnung muss sein" kind of politics

[14:31] Smoke Wijaya: lol

[14:31] mykos Inglewood: i'd be under u triss

[14:31] Smoke Wijaya: mykos, sorry, but I do not really see the chaos...

[14:32] mykos Inglewood: if you offered a good system

[14:32] mykos Inglewood: where i benefited

[14:32] Ryn Hax: any real power to the residents of SL would be a huge effort on the part of LL to define and administer ... and in the end would likely fail due to lack of resources and political will on the part of LL

[14:32] Smoke Wijaya: ...the mainland might be a bit cluttered soemtimes...but the chaos...nah, I dont see it...i do see still a lot of freedoms here though...

[14:33] Rin Tae: if 1000 sims decide to join into one community that governs them then sure! .. I am all for it .. if one sim decides to create their own system then it is jsut as great ... there is no need to bring 'order' into the chaos

[14:33] mykos Inglewood: of course it's chaos

[14:33] mykos Inglewood: a guy rezed a giant penis

[14:33] mykos Inglewood: next to my door

[14:33] Mercurius Jacobus: boohoo

[14:33] Ryn Hax: 1000 sims == herding cats

[14:33] Triss Gray: chaos is part of the attraction

[14:33] Smoke Wijaya: Ryn, not all on the part of LL to define and administer....but yeah, I would say, that i also do not have a clear idea of a structure/system that would enable participatory democratic organsiation/consruction of SL....

[14:33] Anonymous1: haha - yes herding cats

[14:34] Triss Gray: if it's be a world of a 1000 identical sims, who would give a dman

[14:34] Smoke Wijaya: ...the answer at least lies not with Rl copied structures like the silly groups that called for palriament for SL.

[14:34] mykos Inglewood: i know many of you like being able to come to sl

[14:34] Ryn Hax: or worse 1000 sims organized == training cats to tap-dance in unison

[14:34] mykos Inglewood: and do what u like

[14:34] mykos Inglewood: that's the appeal

[14:34] mykos Inglewood: but their also dangers

[14:34] mykos Inglewood: to that as we've all seen

[14:34] mykos Inglewood: we need order

[14:35] Anonymous1: that is such a wonderful image Ryn

[14:35] Dar Innis: wow smoke, your on that list of JLU greifers

[14:35] Smoke Wijaya: I know

[14:35] Rin Tae: and the answer for it is also in the technical side of SL since the current group system in no way allow for the creation of a democratic system for example .. it is very very limited and doesn'T really support larger community creation

[14:35] Triss Gray: but what I do agree with that it would be very nice if sims/groups of sims had a better way of creating their own form of governance etc

[14:35] Smoke Wijaya: Dar, I have been on more lists within Sl...

[14:35] mykos Inglewood: we need a republic

[14:35] Triss Gray: Dar: he wouldn't be smoke if he wasn't :-)

[14:35] Dar Innis: they apparently keep the list in order to have a ban network.

[14:35] mykos Inglewood: where we democratically elect our senators

[14:36] Ryn Hax: not likely to happen mykos .. the resources and will to do such a thing does not even get close to what would be required

[14:36] Anonymous1: if we had elections and parliaments here in sl I would leave - I just wanta system that works

[14:36] Smoke Wijaya: is silly reason why i am on that list btw, of the JLU...is because of "dDOS attack on a sim by organising filling it up" or soemthing....

[14:37] Dar Innis: bs

[14:37] Smoke Wijaya: ie, because of helping with a demo/protest in SL :)

[14:37] mykos Inglewood: then we gonna have to be at linden labs whim forever

[14:37] mykos Inglewood: we do have the resources

[14:37] mykos Inglewood: where do u think linden labs gets them

[14:37] Smoke Wijaya: that's true

[14:38] Anonymous1: well as my boss says - if you don't like it you can always leave - thats why I just quit my job

[14:38] Smoke Wijaya: but your system does not sound apealing at all mykjos...

[14:38] Smoke Wijaya: and that is a big problem..you already have conceived a way it should be....

[14:38] mykos Inglewood: i beg to differ, it makes linden labs better

[14:38] Smoke Wijaya: ...that's not th way to go methinks....we need to think of a structure that enables us all to participate in the constitution/construction/governing of SL...

[14:38] mykos Inglewood: a good job market order where they lack resources to oversee a community so large by themselves

[14:38] Rin Tae: one million times 100L is a lot of moeny .. but try to make one million people to act together to create a virtual world .. there is where the problem of the ressources is

[14:39] Ryn Hax: LL has a number of full time resources to run and administer the TOS and AR system but that is not even close to what would be required to oversee an inworld government

[14:39] mykos Inglewood: we can do it by covenants

[14:39] mykos Inglewood: it's easy

[14:39] mykos Inglewood: we do it now

[14:39] mykos Inglewood: jsut not in unison

[14:39] Smoke Wijaya: inworld [parliamentary-style] government is silly idea I really think so.....we have to look towards wiki's and such...opensource ways of creating/maintaining etc etc

[14:40] Anonymous1: the only time iknow that LL did cave in to pressure was when they tried to tax prims way way back and the peopel did revolt

[14:40] mykos Inglewood: but linden labs is the government

[14:40] Triss Gray votes no on inworld government

[14:40] Smoke Wijaya: overarching organisation/institutions being cooperatives with userbase, not corporate entities...

[14:40] Anonymous1: it's somewhere in teh sl history...

[14:40] Ryn Hax: agrees with Smoke . wikis viral campaigns .. really the only way change could happen

[14:40] Rin Tae: LL can't and wont be the gov ... I am very usre, that htey will stay away form it as far as possible ... I don'T really see any other way but to give more control to the lokal communites .. but this would make LL a provider only and move the grid away form their servers to private ones .. and then other problems arise but well .. no solution can ever be perfect

[14:40] Smoke Wijaya: Yeah Anonymous1, indeed

[14:40] Smoke Wijaya: and that was effective...

[14:41] Smoke Wijaya: but that was a way different "culture"... a way smaller world...wasn't it?

[14:41] Anonymous1: yes it was before my time here

[14:41] Smoke Wijaya: it wass before the opening up to free accounts right, in 05 or so?

[14:41] Anonymous1: and yes it was a lot smaller

[14:41] Rin Tae: yes.. and less CONSUME or die! like as SL seem to be now sometimes

[14:41] mykos Inglewood: we too weak alone

[14:41] mykos Inglewood: we need a binding system

[14:41] Anonymous1: 04 oor 03 (I think)

[14:41] Smoke Wijaya: yeah, you hear a lot of stories that the userbase back then was also way closer to LL, or otherway around...

[14:42] Smoke Wijaya: that helps to create infleunce...

[14:42] Anonymous1: when I joined theer would only be 2k users in world at a time

[14:42] Smoke Wijaya: right...

[14:42] Smoke Wijaya: not sure anymore what it was end 06...but still not so many...I think around 10000

[14:42] Smoke Wijaya: concurrent users

[14:42] Rin Tae: I think when I joined it was around 18.000 and then soon started to climb to 30.000 .. but I am not sure

[14:42] mykos Inglewood: ideas catch on fast

[14:43] mykos Inglewood: who wants a penis rezed on their front lawn

[14:43] mykos Inglewood: raise your hand

[14:43] Triss Gray: ? wtf are you blabbing about?

[14:43] Mercurius Jacobus: what species, mykos?

[14:43] Triss Gray: and yes, sl has changed much

[14:43] mykos Inglewood: lack of order

[14:44] Tanya Neutron: 38-42,ooo at least peak hrs when i'm on, 6o,ooo +plus on regular hours

[14:44] Anonymous1: no mykos none of us like being griefed

[14:44] mykos Inglewood: linden labs can't contain the problem

[14:44] Anonymous1: although at hobo island we do regard griefers as light entertainemnet

[14:44] mykos Inglewood: as sl grows

[14:44] Triss Gray: but otoh, I wouldn't be here if it wasn't for free accounts ;-) and now I'm premium as well so it isn't all bad

[14:44] mykos Inglewood: we need more order

[14:44] Anonymous1: as we do effectively police ourselves as we are large enough to ensure that someone is always around with ban rights

[14:44] mykos Inglewood: our own government telling linden labs as a big group how we want sl run

[14:45] Smoke Wijaya: Not sure if I just asked this a second time, but here it goes again then...lol...would anyone object to having his name published on our website in this chatlog? if so, pease say so, we will omit your name from the log.

[14:45] Anonymous1: your government - maybe I didn't vote for them....

[14:45] Smoke Wijaya: but that way we maybe can also extend the discussion...on our forums...

[14:45] Triss Gray: besides, most of the so called griefing can be very easily dealt with by the parcel owner, if he/she just keeps the head together instead of starting to scream hysterically about being griefed

[14:45] Triss Gray: autoreturn, temporary locks, kicks of obnoxious people, tec

[14:45] Mercurius Jacobus: no objection, smoke

[14:46] Anonymous1: please don't list my name on your blog - thanks

[14:46] Ryn Hax: whats the site name Smoke?

[14:46] mykos Inglewood: that's why we need a union of parcel owners

[14:46] mykos Inglewood: lol

[14:46] Triss Gray: Anonymous1: may I inquire why not?

[14:46] Smoke Wijaya: Will post in this thread Ryn: http://sldemocraticmovement.org/forum/outline_reasonable_justice_system

[14:46] Triss Gray: just curiosity

[14:46] Anonymous1: you can ask

[14:46] Smoke Wijaya: Ok Anonymous1

[14:46] Tanya Neutron: if it will lead to me being on ar list automaticallyy, would not like it there, but if not, am ok; am all for this discussion and concepts therein etc

[14:47] Smoke Wijaya: hehe, no, you being here wont lead automatically to be on an AR list...lol

[14:47] Smoke Wijaya: I think noone here is...

[14:47] Smoke Wijaya: ...except for me....

[14:47] Rin Tae: I was not on the list and I am like constantly here ^^

[14:48] Smoke Wijaya: ...adn that is becaus of SLLA history and my opposition to racist/nazi/fascist organisations in SL...

[14:48] Ryn Hax: thanks Smoke .. will have a look

[14:48] Tanya Neutron: :)

[14:48] mykos Inglewood: so what was the topic again, lol?

[14:48] Triss Gray: muhahaha, all ur AR are belong to us now :-p

[14:48] Tanya Neutron: :)

[14:48] Tanya Neutron: that i'd join in with, smoke

[14:49] mykos Inglewood: we need court systems on our sims as well

[14:49] Smoke Wijaya: lol mykos

[14:49] Anonymous1: no courts please

[14:49] Ryn Hax: alas I am away ... take care everyone .. may your IP addresses remain forever unblocked *grins*

[14:50] Smoke Wijaya: Bye Ryn, thanks for coming along

[14:50] Smoke Wijaya: see you around I hope

[14:50] Triss Gray: thar be ar'ing abound, yarrr

[14:50] Rin Tae likes dynamic IP adresses a lot and waves: "Bye! We have such discussins each week .. same place, same time"

[14:50] Smoke Wijaya: oh yeah, keep forgetting to advertise own events :)

[14:51] Triss Gray: actually, the permabans are not on ip, but on some kind of key the sl client calculates upon install based on your hardware

[14:51] Tanya Neutron: whats day and time now

[14:51] Smoke Wijaya: hehe

[14:51] Smoke Wijaya: Tuesdays, 1 pm SLT Tanya

[14:51] Smoke Wijaya: SL Issues Discussion in the eevnt listings

[14:51] Tanya Neutron: :)

[14:51] mykos Inglewood: sl needs better jobs and more opportunities

[14:51] Tanya Neutron: ok

[14:51] Anonymous1: the PN have software and techniques to get around that Triss

[14:51] Triss Gray: and better healthcare!

[14:51] Triss Gray: and less corruption!

[14:52] Triss Gray: moire cake!

[14:52] Smoke Wijaya: Not sure if shoopedlife is nowadays not immediately banned...

[14:52] Tanya Neutron: thanks triss

[14:52] Anonymous1: and applepie

[14:52] mykos Inglewood: keep corruption forget healthcare

[14:52] mykos Inglewood: lol

[14:52] Triss Gray: PN ?

[14:52] Smoke Wijaya: Patriotic Nigras...

[14:52] Anonymous1: you can compile your own client

[14:52] Triss Gray: ah

[14:52] Triss Gray: I know it can be circumvented

[14:52] Smoke Wijaya: ...is an old grifergroup...not so active anymore due to inside "furryfaggotry" and simple infighting.

[14:53] mykos Inglewood: who pays for this sim?

[14:53] Triss Gray: just sayong that ip's don't matter too much in this, be they dynamic or fixed

[14:53] mykos Inglewood: are u paying too much? or are u fine with what u pay?

[14:53] Anonymous1: and the PN blog has been updated to include the JLU fiasco so they are not totally moribund and dead

[14:53] Triss Gray: oh, and more singing events too!

[14:53] Triss Gray: hehe, there is still some zombie scouring the net for fresh copy paste :-)

[14:54] Smoke Wijaya: mykos....this part you are on now is groupowned, and payed for by several members, inclduing Triss and me through tierdonation..and by Rin for insatnce by sale of her creations and donating, as well as building the HQs and organisation.

[14:54] Triss Gray: and random gifts

[14:54] mykos Inglewood: expand it

[14:54] Triss Gray: also: we own just a parcel, not a sim

[14:54] mykos Inglewood: make it 1000 sims

[14:54] mykos Inglewood: under one government

[14:54] Smoke Wijaya: yeah...'

[14:54] Smoke Wijaya: lol

[14:55] Smoke Wijaya: mykos, I think noone here would want "one governemt"...

[14:55] mykos Inglewood: send a message

[14:55] mykos Inglewood: to linden labs

[14:55] Rin Tae: welll ... not like I would have anything against having so many prims to build with but it is a bit expensive

[14:55] Triss Gray is this far from doing the fawlty towers sketch with the silly walk

[14:55] mykos Inglewood: u are one big group and they must listen

[14:55] Smoke Wijaya: of course protocols and standards are handy and great for cooperation adn such, but they dont have to be executed and implemented by a governement

[14:55] Triss Gray: and I don't think we would have a bigger audience with more space

[14:56] Triss Gray: or a more captive one

[14:56] Smoke Wijaya: mykos, no, we are not that big at all...

[14:56] mykos Inglewood: no you'd have tv network

[14:56] Triss Gray: we would have just more lurkers hoping to get some free land :-)

[14:56] Tanya Neutron: mykos, part of what everyone likes of sl is its freedom, so more cops and governance is not likely to appeal

[14:56] mykos Inglewood: is a price even in freedom

[14:56] Anonymous1: it would just drive poeple to open sim

[14:57] mykos Inglewood: and u not free u still under one big order

[14:57] Triss Gray: ok mykos, just admit it, that mykos comes from M as in M linden, and you're here to spy on us AND to try to make us silly by spewing nonsensical stuff :-p

[14:57] Anonymous1: where in the world are people really free?

[14:57] Triss Gray: I'm on to you :-p

[14:57] Rin Tae: (If I would be i nteh position of being able to get 1000 sims, then I would dfntevly make free land available)

[14:57] Anonymous1: name one place

[14:57] Anonymous1: and don't say USA

[14:58] mykos Inglewood: how do u know people will leave an orderly place, they may leave becoz it's not orderly

[14:58] Triss Gray: on that drilling station that is it's own country perhaps?

[14:58] Anonymous1: ok - point taken

[14:58] Tanya Neutron: :)

[14:58] Tanya Neutron: in sl we try to be

[14:58] Anonymous1: thats the uninhabited one - right?

[14:58] Triss Gray: ah, is it uninhabited now?

[14:59] mykos Inglewood: and open grid sims do bad becozthey lack capitalism

[14:59] Triss Gray: I thought someone had bought it to evade copyright law

[14:59] Anonymous1: I was j/king

[14:59] mykos Inglewood: you all still forgettign capitalsim

[14:59] Rin Tae: it is inhabited .. but it is the second one .. the first one was badly damaged in a storm, but I am not sure about theri current status

[14:59] mykos Inglewood: is the very heart of this place

[14:59] mykos Inglewood: without it we nothing

[14:59] mykos Inglewood: we need it

[14:59] Tanya Neutron: what opensim how do u get there?

[15:00] Anonymous1: osgrid.org

[15:00] Smoke Wijaya: lol to "open grid sims do bad becozthey lack capitalism"

[15:00] mykos Inglewood: i visit them all they all are failed projects

[15:00] Rin Tae: but then .. they finance themselves by providing sever space for anyone who comes in with big moeny without any question about who they store what for .. so I am not really sure if they are a good example for anything

[15:00] Smoke Wijaya: that they lack commerce...maybe...

[15:00] Rin Tae: the oil rig guys I mean

[15:00] Anonymous1: osgrid will soon have more sims than sl - it's not failing

[15:00] Tanya Neutron: thx Anonymous1

[15:00] Smoke Wijaya: but that in the first place is then because we are conditioned as consumers and seek this...

[15:01] Triss Gray: I don't

[15:01] mykos Inglewood: well i dont see any of you all there

[15:01] Triss Gray: I hardly buy anything

[15:01] mykos Inglewood: lol

[15:01] mykos Inglewood: u here with good ole mykos

[15:01] Triss Gray: we don't see you there either :-p

[15:01] mykos Inglewood: lol

[15:01] mykos Inglewood: oh im a capitalist

[15:01] mykos Inglewood: at the heart

[15:01] Rin Tae admits to like to buy stuff

[15:01] mykos Inglewood: i'd be no other place

[15:01] Triss Gray points to rin and shouts: guilty! :-p

[15:01] mykos Inglewood: these linden dollars

[15:02] mykos Inglewood: i've collected millions of them

[15:02] mykos Inglewood: they are what matters

[15:02] mykos Inglewood: here

[15:02] mykos Inglewood: they speak for us

[15:02] mykos Inglewood: but they dont belogn to us

[15:02] Anonymous1: well I beg to differ

[15:02] Smoke Wijaya: commerce does not equal capitalism....I could very well see mutualism work great in cyberspace...

[15:02] Nolligan Nino: L$ are not important to me

[15:03] mykos Inglewood: sl capitalism is what built this place

[15:03] mykos Inglewood: to deny that

[15:03] mykos Inglewood: is to deny the point of being here

[15:03] mykos Inglewood: u can't get around that

[15:03] mykos Inglewood: this sim cost money

[15:03] Smoke Wijaya: mykos, I do not deny that one of the thinsg that constitutes SL's success is the ability to earn money...

[15:03] mykos Inglewood: somebody paying for this

[15:03] Triss Gray: I owuld say creativity built this place mostly... also, notice how the big firms failed to make any lasting impression here

[15:03] mykos Inglewood: is it u smoke?

[15:03] Triss Gray: don't overestimate the scale of money in sl

[15:04] Rin Tae: yes.. money does not have the same importance here then it has in RL .. people give moeny more importance here that it relaly deserves, but that is because the way of thinking leaks over form RL .. what is jsut natural I would say

[15:04] Anonymous1: well personally I don't take either the linden dollar or business in sl seriously

[15:04] Anonymous1: most peole don't make money here

[15:04] Smoke Wijaya: yeah, pretty muuch most don't indeed

[15:04] Triss Gray: being the most influential in sl stock markets is like being the biggest weat on the dungheap - a feat, but none too impressive :-)

[15:04] Dar Innis: I've made a little

[15:04] mykos Inglewood: doesnt matter they spend it

[15:04] Anonymous1: don't be taken in by the LL propaganda about business

[15:05] mykos Inglewood: true it is propaganda

[15:05] Tanya Neutron: brb

[15:05] mykos Inglewood: to make lindens money

[15:05] Rin Tae: some are .. the most merchants however seem to be in the category of jsut wanting to have soemthign that pay for their own needs and wishes or for the fun of creating .. there are some greedy oens of course too

[15:05] mykos Inglewood: but i like this place

[15:05] mykos Inglewood: lol

[15:05] Anonymous1: no offence but who takes the sl stock market seriosly?

[15:05] Triss Gray: mykos? :-)

[15:05] Dar Innis: lsl is prolly linden labs biggest loser when it comes to business

[15:06] Dar Innis: if they used python or even javascript and provided a comprehensive object model then businesses might take them more seriously

[15:06] Anonymous1: if I wanted a serious IPO I'd list on AIM

[15:06] Anonymous1: not on sl

[15:06] Dar Innis: client side scripting would also be good

[15:06] Smoke Wijaya: Anyway, I have to log off...getting really tired. I will post the chatlog tomorrow on the earlier pasted thread about the AR system. Will omit Nolligan's name and if anyone else wants to go anonymous, IM me and I will do so. I will also get anothe rpoint on the forum in that thread,m which we did not get to discuss, which is the idea to have a public record of your own violations, attainable on your accountpage after you login on the website.