SL Issues Discussion 04 October 08

[11:55] Smoke Wijaya: Hey Rin [11:55] Bob, the Greeter Droid: Welcome at the SLDM HQs, Grog Waydelich. [11:55] Bob, the Greeter Droid: Welcome at the SLDM HQs, Smoke Wijaya. [11:56] Smoke Wijaya: Hello Grog [11:56] You: hi smoke ..hi grog [11:56] Grog Waydelich: hi Smoke. I am here for the discussion. [11:56] Grog Waydelich: Am I in the right place? [11:56] Smoke Wijaya: yes ±' [11:56] You: sure you are [11:56] Smoke Wijaya: :)* [11:56] Grog Waydelich: a bit early I guess [11:56] You: it´s normal .. people need a few minutes to apear [11:57] Smoke Wijaya: Rin, I am having somehting to eat quickly, so...you guys will have to excuse for some minutes still [11:57] You: no problem. [11:57] Smoke Wijaya: sorry, but got a late notice... [11:57] Grog Waydelich: should we sit in that room over there? [11:58] You: we normally meet in the dome on the otehr side [11:58] You: there is more room there [11:59] Grog Waydelich: looks good. I haven't attended this meeting before - is there a notcard I should read? [11:59] Grog Waydelich: and do you use voice or text to discuss? [12:00] You: we use text .. it´s better for discussions and we have no notecard [12:01] You: we do those events weekly .. each tuesday at 12 pm ... and people never learn to be here on time :P [12:03] You: hmm .... [12:03] Grog Waydelich: I am a Uni lecturer - same deal [12:04] You: yes... I guess so [12:04] You: but on SL it´s like ... sometimes people come sometimes not [12:04] Grog Waydelich: same deal ! :-) [12:04] You: hehe [12:05] Rin Tae sighs [12:06] You: welcome back, soke [12:06] You: *smoke [12:06] Smoke Wijaya: thanks [12:06] Smoke Wijaya: where is the angry mob? [12:06] Grog Waydelich: voting? [12:06] Smoke Wijaya: hehe [12:06] Bob, the Greeter Droid: Welcome at the SLDM HQs, Calithien Vaher. [12:06] You: shouting at each other in the 352554 groups that have formed around this issue [12:06] Smoke Wijaya: lol [12:07] You: hi Calithien [12:07] Calithien Vaher: hi [12:07] Smoke Wijaya: for the record, we are not formed around this issue :) [12:07] Smoke Wijaya: Hello Calithien, welcome [12:07] Calithien Vaher: hello and ty [12:07] You: yes,, we are around for much longer [12:08] Grog Waydelich: what is this thing? [12:08] Smoke Wijaya: hehe [12:08] Smoke Wijaya: thats our greeter [12:08] Smoke Wijaya: but he is not so smart yet [12:08] You: it´s Bob .. he can'T talk, but looks cute [12:10] You: maybe they are all lookgin at the election in the US [12:10] Smoke Wijaya: it is in no way predictable... [12:10] Smoke Wijaya: thats for sure [12:10] Smoke Wijaya: if and how many will come..no logic at all [12:10] Smoke Wijaya: hehe [12:11] Bob, the Greeter Droid: Welcome at the SLDM HQs, Ernest Newman. [12:11] Smoke Wijaya: although I do think the topic is interesting... [12:11] You: hey Ernest [12:11] Grog Waydelich: I'd have thought there isn't much to look at this early on Election day [12:11] Smoke Wijaya: Hey Ernest [12:11] You: the topic is soemthing that caused huge unrest all over the grid [12:12] Smoke Wijaya: well, not the focus on the ToS [12:12] You: and I guess Triss will be here in a moment [12:12] Smoke Wijaya: OpenSpace issue is just an example of that disease called the current ToS [12:12] You: I know.. they are all lookign at their money and not on the underlaying problem [12:12] Smoke Wijaya: example of effect* [12:13] Bob, the Greeter Droid: Welcome at the SLDM HQs, Triss Gray. [12:13] You: hey Triss [12:14] Triss Gray: hey rin, and others [12:14] You: not many otehrs around this time .. and no angry mobs shouting at each other [12:14] Grog Waydelich: this greeter reminds me of those "searcher" robots in Bladerunner! he seems to be following me around [12:14] Smoke Wijaya: just looking at you [12:14] You: he looks at the nearest avi [12:14] Smoke Wijaya: the one closest [12:15] Smoke Wijaya: Hey Triss [12:15] Triss Gray: wait till we learn it to talk properly, then you'll be scared ;-) [12:15] Smoke Wijaya: hehe [12:15] Smoke Wijaya: yeah [12:16] Bob: Hello there. [12:16] You: soooo .. do we wait or do we do something now? [12:16] Smoke Wijaya: Hi Bob [12:16] Bob: Hi there . How are you doing, bob. [12:16] test: Bob: I hate it when people talk about me like i'm not there [12:17] test: Bob [12:17] Smoke Wijaya: good question Rin [12:17] Bob: Thanks for the compliment. Are we still talking about ? [12:17] Grog Waydelich: that's not Bob - it's Eliza! :-) [12:17] Smoke Wijaya: pandora bot, yes [12:17] Triss Gray: hehe, you recognize the pattern quite easy :-) [12:18] Smoke Wijaya: I dont know whether we should start ... I thnk some of us agree on almost everything [12:18] test: lat's talk about world domination [12:19] Grog Waydelich: it's a mechanical bull [12:19] You: I know ... it´s hard to discuss when we agree .. of course we don'T know what Grog thinks about this issue [12:19] Smoke Wijaya nods [12:19] Grog Waydelich: Well I haven't thought about it much. On the one hand it seems like a classic software TOS - "the company owns everything and is responsible for nothing". [12:20] Smoke Wijaya: yes, it is in its wording [12:20] Bob, the Greeter Droid: Welcome at the SLDM HQs, Pauly Putzo. [12:20] Grog Waydelich: on the other hand, SL is not just software - it's a communal server, space even, where people store their things [12:20] You: hey Pauly [12:20] Smoke Wijaya: the question is .. should it be with SL being usercreated [12:20] Smoke Wijaya: right [12:20] Smoke Wijaya: Hello Pauly [12:20] You: not only store, but also create things [12:20] Grog Waydelich: This issue seems to be similar to RL governance issues. [12:21] You: in a bit .. yes [12:21] Smoke Wijaya nods [12:21] Ernest Newman: well, there is the issue of how closely we want to be associated/ identified with "SOS", which seems to be primarily a land baron group..can we also put that on the agenda? [12:21] Pauly Putzo: Hello, can you tell me why I don't see anyone? [12:21] You: I mean .. it is like a gov ruling, but the gov can'T do anything .. it is bound by law itself [12:21] Grog Waydelich: For example, I research at a university. When I am working on Uni premises, what are my and the uni's rights and responsibilities? [12:21] Smoke Wijaya: oh Ernest, we dont even focus on those groups or really on the issue of OpenSpace even [12:21] You: people need to rezz Pauly .. sometimes it takes a moemnt [12:22] Grog Waydelich: In RL, the law doesn't usually allow organizations to simply say "we have all the rights and no responsibilities" [12:22] Smoke Wijaya: its about the ToS allowing LL to unilateral change contract and consequenty can do this price hike [12:22] Ernest Newman: well, I agree that the TOS is a central issue....but you do have these SOS flags here, lol [12:22] Grog Waydelich: Does US law stop LL from doing that? [12:22] Sammy Dunn is Online [12:22] Ernest Newman: I'd prefer to see our "own" logos, and not theirs, heh [12:23] Smoke Wijaya: yes, right Ernest .. they have to go anyway .. since those groups all fell apart .. [12:23] Grog Waydelich: If LL are allowed to enforce that TOS by the law, then I would guess that the only recourse of residents is to threaten to desert SL [12:23] Bob, the Greeter Droid: Welcome at the SLDM HQs, xalman Khandr. [12:23] Bob, the Greeter Droid: Welcome at the SLDM HQs, Birric Forcella. [12:23] Smoke Wijaya: Hello xalman [12:23] Smoke Wijaya: Hey Birric [12:24] Ernest Newman: fair enough, Smoke... [12:24] You: sure.. but without a alternative, noone will [12:24] Birric Forcella: Hey! [12:24] You: I guess now that wea re more people ..we should move to the dome [12:24] Grog Waydelich: sure [12:24] xalman Khandr: hi [12:25] Rin Tae points to teh dome: "Please take a seet there and we can start properly." [12:25] Smoke Wijaya: and threathening .. will that work? maybe LL will only listen when usage and revenue goes down [12:25] Bob thinks it won't matter when robots rule the world [12:25] xalman Khandr shouts: any body hesr me [12:25] Pauly Putzo: sorry [12:26] You: come to teh dome and have a seat [12:26] xalman Khandr: hi [12:26] You: hi,, the event is taking place in the dome here .. please come in and take a seat [12:27] Pauly Putzo: Where is the dome? [12:27] You: behind you [12:28] xalman Khandr: watt is doe [12:28] xalman Khandr: dome [12:28] You: the building behind me [12:28] xalman Khandr: hi [12:28] Pauly Putzo: Hi [12:29] Ernest Newman: you "agree" to it, to gain access [12:29] Grog Waydelich: I wonder if there is some protection in law against one party in the contract changing the contract after others have agreed to it? [12:30] Triss Gray: well, afaik most of those kind of contracts work like this: [12:30] Ernest Newman: although there is legal precedent in US, re: rquiring "agreement" to onerous or exploitive terms in the "fine print", etc [12:30] You: first of all .. doas you have anything against it when we log the discussion to put it up on our blog? [12:30] Triss Gray: you have 2 kinds of law: binding law, and overrulable law [12:30] Smoke Wijaya: ...lost connection... [12:30] Triss Gray: the second type are rights you can give away, eg in a tos [12:30] You: welcome back [12:30] Ernest Newman: if it's inherently unjust, or fraudulent, or exploitive, it can be found non binding [12:30] Smoke Wijaya: thanks [12:30] Triss Gray: the first on,e even if youy eg agree to voiding them in a tos, will always protect uyou [12:31] Triss Gray: and then there's things in a tos like ernest says, that allthough you can agree to them, will probably not stand in a lawcase because they are too broad [12:31] Ernest Newman: or unjust [12:32] Triss Gray: and part of our problem is that people will blindly agree to these tos's thinking that a) it'll never be used against them [12:32] Triss Gray: and b) that if it would be needed they'll win a lawsuit, not thinking about the cost and trouble of all that, and certainly in eu it's not that easy to sue people like that [12:32] You: it´s the normal 'I have nothign to hide, I have nothign to fear' - feeling .. plus the beleive, taht nothing bad can happen to me on the net [12:32] Ernest Newman: like, it's kinda coercive, for them to "require" agreement, even to onerous terms...but that's especially true for a "necessity" of service or whatever, as opposed to a strictly entertainment or luxury kind of thing [12:33] Triss Gray: and about the changing the tos thing [12:33] Triss Gray: I think as long that when you change it, you offer people a way to bail out (eg clicking no), it's ok [12:33] Triss Gray: of course, people will agree to it anyway, especially if no would mean no access to already existing assets [12:34] You: yes [12:34] Ernest Newman: I think an argument could be made, as to the necessity of access to the metaverse, even as a basic human right... [12:34] Triss Gray: mm, don't think a lawmaker would go for that yet [12:34] Ernest Newman: how far it would go, heh, would be ....sketchy, heh [12:35] Triss Gray: well, most of these people have no idea what this is all about [12:35] You: I would not go that far calling it a human right .. it would be more something of general net access taht should be made as widely avaialbble as possible [12:35] Smoke Wijaya: Pasting two important articles in SL ToS regarding this: [12:35] Smoke Wijaya: ToS pretext: "Linden Lab may amend this Agreement at any time in its sole discretion, effective upon posting the amended Agreement at the domain or subdomains of http://secondlife.com where the prior version of this Agreement was posted" ToS 1.7: "[...] Linden Lab may add new services for additional fees and charges, or proactively amend fees and charges for existing services, at any time in its sole discretion." [12:35] Triss Gray: and if it's not going to get them a lot of extra votes, why then botter [12:35] xalman Khandr: can i sit here [12:36] Ernest Newman: but it is considered a "right" in Europe, as I understand it, to have a TV even...and in the US, it is a right to have a phone...like for welfare recipients....it's considered a necessity, for full human citizenship [12:36] Smoke Wijaya: definitely xalman :) [12:36] Smoke Wijaya: please feel free to join in [12:36] Ernest Newman: and full realization of one's potential, and pursuit of social opporlunity [12:36] You: it is Ernest [12:36] Smoke Wijaya: Hello Suksuk, welcome [12:36] Triss Gray: yes, but phone and tv are way more "accepted" and spread [12:36] Suksuk Memel: hello to you all! [12:37] Ernest Newman: well, no reason not to push that envelope, heh [12:37] Triss Gray: noticet hat not even internet access is in that list of neccesities yet [12:37] xalman Khandr: y u all together here [12:37] Ernest Newman: internet access is fast becooming a necessity, for full access to info, for sure [12:37] You: internet access should be in this .. but of course .. big parts of the world don't have access to what we have .. so this issue is far bigger then anything concering SL [12:37] Triss Gray: yes, i see your point ernest, but I don't think the non sl world, which is much more numerous, will go for anything like that, yet [12:38] Birric Forcella: If it's a basic human right to be in SL - then who will pay for it when the Lindens walk away from it? [12:38] Smoke Wijaya: because we are having a public discussion xalman, regarding the Terms of Service of SL/LL, focussing now on unilateral contract change and possible contract negotiation. [12:38] Ernest Newman: well, but it is being recognized that those who don't have access are at a distinct disadvantage, and efforts are being made to correct that [12:38] Triss Gray: I don't think at this time our main or even minor "source" of extra support for this cause will be outside sl [12:38] Smoke Wijaya: although we might get a bit of that road now adn then [12:38] Smoke Wijaya: hehe [12:39] xalman Khandr shouts: hrlp me [12:39] Smoke Wijaya: noone will [12:39] Smoke Wijaya: but Rin does not bite xalman [12:39] Smoke Wijaya: I think... [12:39] Triss Gray: if even 90 % of the people who have a stake won't budge unless they have to pay up, I don't expect anybody not having a stake in sl/virtual worlds will [12:39] Grog Waydelich: I'd have thought that LL's claim to be able to *change* the TOS, after a user has already agreed to a previous version, might be illegal. [12:39] Rin Tae is not biting [12:40] Triss Gray: no, since in that previous tos they already gran tthemselves the right to that [12:40] xalman Khandr: boring u akk [12:40] Smoke Wijaya: yeah, I cannot understand that either Grog ... I wondered that as well... [12:40] xalman Khandr: all [12:40] Triss Gray: and they give users a chance to not agree with the new terms, by staying out [12:40] Smoke Wijaya: right xalman [12:40] Smoke Wijaya: thats ok [12:40] You: I´m not sure .. they have written it and if you agree to the ToS you also agree to it .. but one would need a lawyer to answer that question [12:40] xalman Khandr: cause no 1 answer me [12:40] Birric Forcella: Well, banks and credit card companies put routinely clauses like that in their conditions [12:41] Smoke Wijaya: I just asnwered you xalman [12:41] Smoke Wijaya: [12:38] Smoke Wijaya: because we are having a public discussion xalman, regarding the Terms of Service of SL/LL, focussing now on unilateral contract change and possible contract negotiation. [12:41] xalman Khandr: this meeting abt watt [12:41] Ernest Newman: re: TOS negoitations, I'd like to see a clear distinction made, that Land Barons (or corps) should NOT have some special privileged access and influence with the Lindens...we need universal and equal access by all SL residents, regardless of how much they pay [12:42] Birric Forcella: I have a question to the people present - would you give the paying Linden accounts a larger say in what goes on here than the ones who are free accounts? [12:42] Smoke Wijaya: yes Ernest, that is SLDM's stance... [12:42] Triss Gray: xalman: could you please do a minor effort to type something that resembles a sentence? It reads way easier [12:42] Smoke Wijaya: Birric, so thats a no. [12:42] Triss Gray: NO [12:42] Triss Gray: and I'm quite anal about that :-) [12:43] Triss Gray: we had that whole discussion earlier :-) [12:43] Ernest Newman: absolutely not, Birric....free accounts are the cast majority of SL residents, and the entire basis of SL viability, for the corps, LL or any enterpreneurs seeking to "invest", lol [12:43] Birric Forcella: Not exactly, you were talking about access - and I perfectly agree there. I was talking about actual power or influence [12:43] xalman Khandr: ok i m just listen 2 u [12:43] Grog Waydelich: @Birric - that's a very good question. It's tempting to say "equal power to all users", but it's wise to remember how easy it is to create lots of free accounts, thereby getting more votes [12:43] Triss Gray: we were talking then about access to a voting system [12:43] Triss Gray: aka power [12:43] Birric Forcella: I mean if you allow everybody an equal vote - hen what about alternate avis, etc? [12:43] Smoke Wijaya: Grog, that of course, when voting is implemented, can only be meaningful when alts and biots are blocked [12:43] Ernest Newman: no alts, lol [12:43] Smoke Wijaya: of course [12:43] Ernest Newman: for voting, heh [12:44] Triss Gray: grog; our stance was one user, one vote [12:44] You: when it comes to votes, then it can only be done by one person oene vote .. no one account one vote .. that would be rather silly because of all the alts and bots around [12:44] Triss Gray: one user with 15 alts : one vote [12:44] Smoke Wijaya: yes [12:44] Grog Waydelich: But can you block alts? How do you know a user is voting only once? [12:44] Ernest Newman: is that technically feasible? [12:44] Triss Gray: the difficult part, admittedly, as making that sure [12:44] Suksuk Memel: well, sorry its interesting, but I must leave now. Bye to all [12:44] Ernest Newman: to limit it that way? [12:44] xalman Khandr: bye u all [12:44] Birric Forcella: I mean, you might want to show that you have a minimum interest in the game - by paying the minimum 10 buck fee (which really is low) - before you get to have a say [12:45] Smoke Wijaya: Grog, by coupling a ID verification of the User to it...by a trusted thrid party org...where voting is also handled by a trusted yjird party org, not on LL's servers. [12:45] Grog Waydelich: So it it's technically impossible to implement, it may be unwise to demand it. What are the reasonable alternatives? Identified accounts only? [12:45] Triss Gray: I'd think that by voting , and going through the eventual "trouble" of gettign that vote, it proves your interet [12:45] Smoke Wijaya: Bye xalman, bye Suksuk [12:45] Birric Forcella: I am dead set against ID verification [12:45] Triss Gray: hey, nobody said impossible [12:45] Triss Gray: well, you did :-) [12:46] Birric Forcella: Unless ID verification happens outside the jurisdiction of any earthly court - so that no court order can break your anonymity [12:46] Smoke Wijaya: Birric, then you cannot have a voting system to aid in decision making. [12:46] Smoke Wijaya: simple [12:46] Grog Waydelich: I think it is hard to be both for complete anonymity (no id) and also for one vote for each user. Without demanding the users identify themselves, you can't protect the voting system from corruption. [12:46] Smoke Wijaya: hmm, what you mean with thelast? [12:46] Smoke Wijaya: Birric... [12:47] You: that is the big problem .. voting systems needs some form of verification of the one casting the vote [12:47] Birric Forcella: I think that a 10 dollar monthly investment for an avi is as good as ID verification [12:47] You: the point is to make it as secure as possible [12:47] Grog Waydelich: The "$10/month" method seems to be a workable solution. [12:47] Triss Gray: I don't think so [12:47] You: not really .. you can still pay for several accounts .. there is no big problem in this [12:48] Triss Gray: it's even easier to subvert that [12:48] Smoke Wijaya: but .,.. well, we did this voting discussion and on the system couple of weeks ago ... I would like to propose to stay with the ToS/contract changes and ToS negotiation now.... [12:48] Triss Gray: but we had that whole discussion once already :-) [12:48] Grog Waydelich: It's not perfect (some good residents would be disenfranchised, and others would buy several accounts in order to multiple-vote), but it would work most of the time. [12:48] Smoke Wijaya: we simply cannot have it coupled to Sl accounts. [12:48] Triss Gray: maybe we can schedule it again some time [12:48] Smoke Wijaya: yes, we probably shuld [12:48] Triss Gray: but rightnow we're quite literally repeating that one discussion :-) [12:48] You: we need to shedule it again .. it is one of the most intersting topics [12:49] Grog Waydelich: Sorry - I wasn't at the other discussion - will shut up [12:49] Birric Forcella: Well, if you are worried about that, ID verification can also be circumvented with a little money - so I think the 10 bucks make it a wash. Okay, some millionaire may not care if he pays several times 120 bucks a year, but I don't think that is a worry [12:49] You: I can give you the link to the chatlog from that discussion if you are interted in reading it [12:49] Triss Gray: good idea rin! [12:49] Smoke Wijaya: ok birric, one more thing about that, paying 10 bucks to LL, you mean premium membership.....you will have to ID verify with LL for this [12:50] Grog Waydelich: It raises interesting issue about what it is to be a "citizen' of SL. Some aspects of identity that are inherent in RL are not available here. [12:50] Birric Forcella: Not really, you can use paypal and all kinds of things [12:50] Smoke Wijaya: why do you trust LL and not another third party org that would in this case for this purpose be founded by the SL community, as well as conditions for trsut and security. [12:50] Birric Forcella: you can easily be anonymous [12:50] You: http://www.sldemocraticmovement.org/forum/sl_issues_discussion_21oct08 [12:50] Smoke Wijaya: not when you are premium member of SL..... [12:50] You: http://www.sldemocraticmovement.org/forum/sl_issues_discussion_7oct08 [12:50] Triss Gray: I think it's http://sldemocraticmovement.org/forum/sl_issues_discussion_7oct08, not the 21st [12:50] Ernest Newman: The whole issue of paying for internet access suck, though...it should be free, I think, and so shold SL..."citizenship" should not be "purchased", anywhere [12:51] Birric Forcella: I don't think they have my real identity - though I am not sure - but I usually go to some length refusing to give my real ID - just out of principle [12:51] You: thats how it is best on the net Birric [12:51] Birric Forcella: It's a while ago. I don't know exactly what I did - but I pay through paypal, so there must be a reason for that, otherwise I would hve given them my credit card [12:52] You: thats our site btw: http://www.sldemocraticmovement.org/ [12:52] Birric Forcella: In SL I don't really care any more since a lot of people know my real ID [12:53] Ernest Newman: so, has there been any motion on the part of LL, on the Open Sim issue? [12:53] Smoke Wijaya: no, I dont think so ... not heard about any change [12:53] Ernest Newman: in respnse to the protests, and the whole flap [12:54] Grog Waydelich: Sure, the *ideal* is free citizenship on SL. But without identifying people (like in RL voting), there doesn't seem to be a way to stop some people abusing free citizenship to obtain multiple votes. [12:54] Smoke Wijaya: what I did hear is that in the different SOS and other groups formed for this, there is lindens in and LL contact through them as well. [12:54] Smoke Wijaya: are* [12:55] Ernest Newman: so, is there some way we can address the injustice of LL having private, or secret, or privileged discussion with the Land Barons? or is that really an issue? [12:55] Triss Gray: you probably have your address in paypal [12:55] Triss Gray: because many things can't be ordered through paypal without that [12:55] Triss Gray: oops, srry, lagging behind :-) [12:55] Birric Forcella: Can I try to float the suggestion for a free market approach - or would that a non-starter from the get-go? [12:55] Smoke Wijaya: Ernest, those groups are not only filled with landbarons....but yes, special venues for special groups should be opposed, I agree. [12:56] Ernest Newman: i suppose they can, and will talk to them, as a group, but how do we balance that...with the other groups, and make sure all sides are equitably represented? [12:56] Triss Gray: btw, I just read something semi-interesting that has to do some with all this [12:56] Triss Gray: http://nwn.blogs.com/nwn/2008/11/mark-kingdon-on.html [12:56] Ernest Newman: we shold at least state the importance of that, publicly [12:56] Smoke Wijaya: you cant, other then by a open, inclusive venue..not some exclusive group [12:57] Triss Gray: if you look pas tthe openspace stuff, there's some interesting things in that interview [12:57] Triss Gray: We returned several times to the theme of Linden-to-Resident communication. "One of the things we don't have is a mechanism for more formal or regularly proactive dialog," he told me, "and I think that's the thing we've been thinking about before." This latest controversy, he suggested, will motivate them to do so even more. [12:57] Birric Forcella: Well, I think we might at least try it as a strategy - rather than trying to "force" the Lindens to do something (which I doubt they will, because they have the law on their side) - we may try to gently nudge them to see and realize that their true interests are actually in line with what we are asking (well, with most of what we are asking) [12:58] You: brb for a moment .. IMs [12:58] Smoke Wijaya: making them see that their true interests are somewhere else is forcing them [12:58] Smoke Wijaya: Hello Seeker [12:59] Seeker Esparza: Hi! [12:59] Birric Forcella: You don't "force" somebody by convincing him rationally [12:59] Ernest Newman: In the LL Foum, the most vociferous protesters were people who said they had invested, like 500K $US and paid tiers of 200k $US...one said "now what am I supoosed to do, with 18 Open Space sims (oh boo hoo)" [13:00] Birric Forcella: 500K? Half a million? [13:00] Ernest Newman: I think we should press the issue that these predatory abusers are responsable for ruining what was a very good idea [13:00] Birric Forcella: Ernest, that's along the lines I am suggesting [13:00] Ernest Newman: and that they shold not have any major say, in the resolution of the issue? [13:01] Smoke Wijaya: Ernest....you forget to see the subtle point here that these "landbarons" were not all predatory or abusing, but some actually empowering and enabling for other people... [13:01] Tsukasa Seymour is Offline [13:01] Smoke Wijaya: to actually take LL and the need to be paying member of LL out of the equation [13:01] Triss Gray: but by usingmeans the yapparently shouldn't have :-) [13:01] Seeker Esparza: Hi all, I have to go, sorry, I'm at the wrong meeting but this sounds interesting - see you again. bye [13:01] Smoke Wijaya: sorry, and take the need for owning a full performance sim first out fo the equation as well [13:02] Smoke Wijaya: thats 1000 for buying and 300 a month that got other people spaered because of the "evil " land barons [13:02] Birric Forcella: I once tried to float this as a slogan: "At some point the Lindens will have to choose if they want their citizens to hate them or if they want to cheer them." It should be obvious that it would be better for business if the citizens would cheer them. [13:02] Ernest Newman: I realize there are further issue...but what ruined it was the abuse, particularly by big "investors" seeking major profit [13:03] Ernest Newman: it seems to me... [13:03] Smoke Wijaya: probably, but above all the hiogh use of them, by everyone [13:03] Smoke Wijaya: when you make a certain primlimit, it WILL get used to the max almost always [13:03] Ernest Newman: well, besides the big ones, there are the smaller enterpenteurs, I guess, heh [13:03] Triss Gray: don't stare yourself blind on the primlimit though [13:03] You: it is hard to stay below it actually .. low prim building is alsmot an artform [13:03] Smoke Wijaya: it is [13:04] Birric Forcella: We should also stress the fact that these issues far surpass the scope of a simple privately owned game. What happens in these games will have an impact on the freedom in RL for possibly centuries to come by setting basic switches. We should instill in the Lindens a sense of historic mission (which actually once they had) [13:04] Smoke Wijaya nods [13:04] Smoke Wijaya: they still ahve that I think... [13:04] Smoke Wijaya: (I hope) [13:04] Triss Gray: the major issue with it is possibly not prims, but the unforeseen extra load on backbone (assets, intra server communication) as well as a high number of scripts [13:04] Smoke Wijaya: o0k [13:05] You: but they area company .. so it´s not for them to have a historic mission .. more for us .. the users .. to understand, taht we have the possibility to create a historic mission if oyu want to call it that way [13:05] Smoke Wijaya: amen [13:05] Ernest Newman: it seemed pretty clear to me, in reading the initial offering, that it absolutely was not intended for residence....trees, open water...that's it really...so even smaller people abusing the setup is still a problem....LL should have enforced that, from the get go, rather than letting it get out of hand, big or small, it seems to me [13:05] Smoke Wijaya: yes [13:06] Birric Forcella: Rin, it would be smart if we show them that they should join our historic mission [13:06] Birric Forcella: After all, if we succeed, that is exactly what we want [13:06] You: thats of course, Birriy [13:06] You: *Birric [13:07] Ernest Newman: one of the roots of the whole issue is that people want, need, and have a right to more affordable and aestherically appealing lands [13:07] Grog Waydelich: There is precedent for the owner of infrastructure to "do the right thing". Look at the early history of the Internet. It was kept free, or at least much freer than was technically necessary, and brough about great gain for all. [13:07] Smoke Wijaya: the right is difficult to justify I think ernest. [13:08] Smoke Wijaya: yes Grog...indeed [13:08] Birric Forcella: I just think it's nuts to beat the Lindens bloody over something we might get them to do on their own [13:08] Ernest Newman: well, the right to build free was dismissed, but they finally gave in on that, heh [13:08] You: yes... thats why we opt ofr a decentralised interconected and free grid as far as possible .. I beleive it will bring more gain to everybody [13:08] Smoke Wijaya: adn the view of LL is to become part of the start of the 3D web, interoperable grid... [13:08] Ernest Newman: again, they are nothing, without us, lol [13:09] You: and also .. I say it always, that we shout at them because we like SL [13:10] Ernest Newman: they can build all the cool infrastructure they want, but the users rule, really, in terms of whether they are "successful", and especially in a creative environment like SL...whether they want to recognize that, or not, heh [13:10] You: yes, but the users are not aware of their rule I think [13:10] Grog Waydelich: LL will only adopt a particular policy if it allows them to keep/start to make a return on their investment to date. There's no point demanding they hand over their goodies, even if you say it is your "right" to take it. There has to be a win-win solution or it won't happen. [13:10] Ernest Newman: they should be paying us, to use it, heh....and charging those who want access to us as a "market" through the nose [13:11] Ernest Newman: indeed, that's why they have so many free accounts, because they realize that without the traffic, they are nothing, they have nothing to sell to the corps, universities, etc [13:11] Ernest Newman: we are the entire basis of LS, not the infrastructure, the meat that uses it [13:12] Ernest Newman: SL [13:12] You: LL will most likely change due to outside preassure .. the best candidate to do it is actually the market with competitiaon rising and eating away their market share .. they will need to adopt to survive [13:13] Smoke Wijaya: Hmm, I am sorry, but I need to log off. Can someone of you save the log? [13:13] You: still .. workig towards it might make them move faster or at least, make people aware, tah they don't have to take any ToS blindly accepting it [13:13] You: I´ll save the log [13:13] Smoke Wijaya: cool thanks Rin [13:14] Smoke Wijaya: thanks for the discussion people, see you around [13:14] Ernest Newman: If the TOS would even state that they will consult, and collaborate closely with residents, before making decisions, lol...that wold be btter than what it is now [13:14] Ernest Newman: even if they don't promise a vote [13:15] You: yes it would .. aknoledgement of the residents input and creativity [13:15] Ernest Newman: but, then, I suppose that would open them up to potetnial liability, re: what is complaince with that by them...how much consultation and collaboration, heh [13:16] Grog Waydelich: I have to go too. I am presenting at a SL Researchers meeting at 1400 - feel free to pop along if you're interested. (See under Events) [13:16] You: kk .. have fun [13:19] Ernest Newman: oww...the elections are underway right now....everyone in the US is on the edge of their chair...most exciting contest we've had, since.....Kennedy? God, I hope they don't kill Obama....there will be hell to pay if they do [13:19] Triss Gray: If anything, I'd think we've all seen to what a too liberal market approach leads :-) [13:19] You: yes .... [13:19] Ernest Newman: This is not 1961, or whatever... [13:20] You: yes.. I think even Adam Smith wrote something about the market needing a strong state to set the rules and enforce law [13:20] Birric Forcella: Well, much what I said - get them to see that the market will actually reward them if they accede to our intests - you were quite right, they are nothing without their citizens [13:21] You: and if the citiens would understand this .. then they would voice it louder and the LL would have to listen [13:21] You: that is my opinion at least .. but it is hard to acieve [13:21] You: *achieve [13:21] Triss Gray: well, the idea is that the responsible popel will stay responsible because in the long term, that'll benefot them [13:22] Triss Gray: only, of course nobbody ever thinks long term anymore :-) [13:22] Birric Forcella: I mean, just look at the history of the Internet. it is littered with companies who thought they didn't need their customers any more. Anybody remember Atari? [13:22] Triss Gray: ^^ minus all the typos [13:22] Ernest Newman: yeah...I don't think enough residents really see it that way, that we do, totally rule, and that SL is nothing without us...I think we should really push that line [13:22] Triss Gray: well, the atari and commodore brands get sold each few months :-) [13:23] Triss Gray: we are the world, we are the children :-p [13:23] You: the customer ... user .. is one of the big forces in every market. But htey need to act to exercise their force. [13:24] Birric Forcella: We should try to make it clear to LL that they are actually close to the abyss. They can either get their citizens to cheer them or to hate them. I think we are close to the point where they will start to hate them - [13:25] Ernest Newman: I think they are acknowledging the need to be more responsive.....and trying to be....I'll bet there are internal contradiction, different factions in LL [13:25] You: many hate them already .. but you are right Birric .. it is the best to have LL move on their own .. but I still think they need to be made moving by some preassure and I guess the best would be from people inside SL .. those who care about this world enough to save it [13:25] Triss Gray: well, I think everybody starts as a cheer-er [13:25] Birric Forcella: For most citizens these problems do not appear (yet). I think we need a wedge issue [13:25] Triss Gray: it's only when you find out that these problems never get a good solution, and that ll keeps blundering, that you slowly become a "hater" [13:27] Ernest Newman: well perhaps their "responsiveness" is mostly rhetoric, heh...but they keep saying "we hear you" and seem to be directing more energy toward stabilty, for example, rather than bling...one of the longest term and most avid complaints... [13:28] Birric Forcella: Well, as Smoke said - we all love SL - that's why we keep beating up the Lindens - otherwise we'd be somewhere else [13:28] You: hehe..yes [13:28] Triss Gray: ernest: but is that due to a change in "politics" or because they ran out of bling to add? [13:29] Triss Gray: afaik, there's still enough memory leaks inside sl, and while assets etc have been a lot more working then they used to, there's still enough cause for crashing :-) [13:29] Ernest Newman: I need to research the whole "tea party" thing...as I understand it, you used to have to pay fees, to build anything...but massive protest forced them to make that free....I don't see why we couldn't do the same with land, at least to some degree...they used to give all residents a plot of free land, early on, right? It's an integral part of the SL experiennce, just like building [13:30] Triss Gray: in the beginning nobody had land :-) [13:30] Triss Gray: you couldn't own it [13:30] Triss Gray: if you call that free, then ok :-) [13:31] Triss Gray: and of course people abused that, by hamstering prims [13:31] Ernest Newman: but then, they gave small lands to everyone, once ownership was allowed [13:31] You: the free land ... that was mostly a way for land speculation .. with this gone, the big moeny oportunites in this bisness have gone too [13:31] Triss Gray: and it wasn't free [13:31] Triss Gray: it was heap [13:31] You: first land I think it was called [13:31] Triss Gray: cheap* [13:31] Triss Gray: but never free [13:31] Ernest Newman: yeah...first land [13:31] Triss Gray: and there was hardly any supply of it [13:32] You: in the end it lead sometimes to 512m" parcels being sold for insane amount of money or neewbs seling them for a freebie shirt [13:32] Triss Gray: I think it was 1l/sqm [13:32] Ernest Newman: We Want our First Land Back! It could be manages such that it's not available for speculation...either use it, or lose it back to LL...no transfer...why not? [13:33] Birric Forcella: I think all change comes as broad-based movements. I think, rather than just whining over the TOS, you should build a future-based programme which the Lindens and everybody can join - as it was once envisioned for SL, actually - and I think that the wedge issue could very easily be the influence separate countries try to exert in here by trying to impose their limited local laws on all of a worldwide game. -Like the scandal with Germany [13:33] Triss Gray: you also had to become premium for that [13:33] Birric Forcella: I think the Lindens themselves have a very large interest that the game does not become balkanized [13:34] Ernest Newman: kk, well I might be willing to pay a reasonable Premium account fee, if I got some land...as it is now, land costs more than I pay for rent in rl, lol [13:34] You: sure they have .. and building a bigger movement towards this goals is our way to go ... it´s only long and hard and needs time [13:35] Triss Gray: where can you rent 4k m land rl for +- 25€/month then? [13:35] Ernest Newman: Of course, the Open Source movement, is the real solution to SL problems, I think [13:36] Triss Gray: yes, but the opensourceness of ll is a strange one [13:36] Ernest Newman: well, buty I don[ty want some stinking condo apt on the mainland., lol...I want something nice, in the country, lol, with no traffic or lag [13:36] Triss Gray: on one hand the viewer code is oss [13:36] You: ultimatively I hope for LL to take over a provider role and let the grid spread out openly based on decentralised open source servers [13:36] Triss Gray: but contains lots and lots of closed bits [13:36] Triss Gray: and more closed ones have been added even after it became os [13:36] Triss Gray: and their open source process seems to be quite flawed [13:37] Triss Gray: not accepting patches easily, the whole secret bugtracker thing, etc [13:37] Birric Forcella: In fact, Earnest, I think a number of these problems are easier to tackle in SL than later in an open-source environment where the power structure will be much more anonymous and faceless. I think if some of the problems of freedom from oppression and egalitarian principles get solved in "owned" games like SL, it would be very important for the future. [13:37] Ernest Newman: yeah...a lot more developoment, before it's really feasible....but the concept is awesom [13:37] Birric Forcella: In fact, we sould see the existence of LL not as an obstacle but as an opportunity [13:38] Birric Forcella: Becaue, while, as it is now, the Lindens can just reguse to give us anything - on the opposite side of the coin, when the DO give us something (and we should make them), then it is meaning ful [13:39] Ernest Newman: I maybe agree there, Birric....should not wait for Open Source....and LL is probly about as progressive a "company" as we're likely to find anywhere...I really do like their rhetoric, and stated intentions for SL [13:39] You: it is an opportunity as they have made this here possible .. it is an obstacle because they are acting strange and harmign their product sometimes [13:40] You: I personaly would not like to see the LLs gone .. they have made this and they have done good .. maybe they should fire theri PR departamnt and at least half the menagement [13:40] Ernest Newman: well...besides the pressure from investors and tech, they must have different factions in management...I'll bet there has been internal struggle there [13:40] Ernest Newman: exactly, Rin [13:41] Birric Forcella: That's my point. They are harming their product - and we should show that to them. [13:41] Triss Gray: you have to notice how almost all people who were there in the beginning have left or have been put aside [13:41] Triss Gray: aka the suits took over :-) [13:42] Ernest Newman: yeah, no doubt....like sharks to blood...money stink [13:42] Birric Forcella: I'm not so familiar with the details of your complaints, as I am by choice more of a nomad in SL, and I am only here because Smoke is over at Philosophy Houe a lot. However, I'm happy to support the general ideas [13:42] Triss Gray: hehe, so you come listen to our blabbering as a service to smoke? :-) [13:42] Birric Forcella: No, I'm quite interested [13:42] You: yes.. we are a bit more heated up about those issues since this is waht we are mostly working on [13:43] Birric Forcella: But I wouldn't know about any of this if Smoke did not talk about it elsewhere [13:43] Triss Gray: hehe sorry, was a bit of a stupid joke of mine [13:43] Ernest Newman: lol...your input has been good, Birric...you have the link to the blog? [13:43] Birric Forcella: Yes, I'm up on it all [13:43] Ernest Newman: cool [13:43] You: nice [13:43] Birric Forcella: I also have a philosophical interest [13:44] You: we will post the chatlog from this discussion the eas eell [13:44] You: *as well [13:45] Birric Forcella: Anyway, I'm an old man. I used to do my fist raising in the Sixties. [13:45] Triss Gray: mm, that makes me think :-) we should make a fistshaking animation :-) [13:46] You: well ... am I correct that the official meeting is over now? [13:46] Birric Forcella: You could base it on the "hey" gesture [13:46] Birric Forcella: Hey! [13:46] You: making a animation isn'T hard [13:46] Triss Gray: hehe, but still there's some epic animation failure [13:47] You: of course [13:47] Triss Gray: I tries an airguitar one, at least, ot was labaled that wya [13:47] Triss Gray: they made it seem quite like as i was repeatedly stroking my groin :-) [13:47] Ernest Newman: kk rin, and all...thx for interesting discussion...I'm out for now... [13:48] You: airguitar? [13:48] Triss Gray: hehe, no that one was way worse [13:48] Birric Forcella: Well, I'll be going over to PH then - Good night - And vote early and often [13:48] You: byebye.. have fun [13:48] Triss Gray: cya birric, thx for coming [13:49] You: come back anytime .. I´m usually on the lower floor building something