SL Issues Discussion_16Sept08

[excuses for the late post - this discussion started off initially from Metaplace's announcement of incorporating user rights within their ToS]

[12:28] You: people checked the links a bit?

[12:28] You: any intitial thoughts? or did you started already?

[12:28] You: (I just also crashed)

[12:29] Rin Tae: what Wren said .. that it is surprising, that nothing like this exists here .. and that it is not surprising at the same time

[12:29] You: I see...

[12:29] Wren Quintessa: yes, and I also think like I said that people just assume this exists

[12:29] You: no, from experience it aint surprising...

[12:29] You: you did Wren?

[12:29] Wren Quintessa: but it obviously doesn't, and they don't know that because they haven't seen its lack exemplified yet

[12:30] You: I had more the feeling that mostly, people do not seem to care about it yet.

[12:30] Wren Quintessa: I maintain that they don't care because they don't know it's not there

[12:30] Gabriels Destiny: i think some people may erroneously think that their IP is actually their well .. IP

[12:30] Triss Gray: many peopel still see it as a game

[12:30] Wren Quintessa: I mean, if no one told you that you really had no rights, you wouldn't care

[12:30] Triss Gray: many people are also used to beiq >TOS-'d to death

[12:31] Natalie Selentiak: I think it should be named metaspace....so that we can have meatspace, and metaspace.....~full of useful contributions to the group~

[12:31] Wren Quintessa: meatspace?

[12:31] Natalie Selentiak: yes, RL

[12:31] You: right Wren, but a lot of people that are told this, still say "yeah but that is fine, we are in corporate space, this is LL's they can do what they want"

[12:31] Gabriels Destiny: lol

[12:31] Triss Gray: but they can't do it without US :-)

[12:32] Miroirs Hax: avatars going on strike?

[12:32] Bjork Mokeev: Well, obviously youd want some rights if you're a in a paid membership :)

[12:32] Wren Quintessa: frankly i don't think anyone would go on strike

[12:32] Rin Tae: of course this contradicts the whole idea of this world being user created

[12:32] Wren Quintessa: I mean, look at all the people here even with all the grid problems and SL fuck-ups

[12:32] You: there is not really an option for a strike, other then tiering down, Miroirs...tiering down, close and sell of the land...

[12:32] Natalie Selentiak: what can we take away from our sim-providers, and the users that won't assert their rights?

[12:32] Wren Quintessa: "it's still better than nothing"

[12:33] Bjork Mokeev: but dont we have freedom of speech already? we have some rules we have to abide to, ofcourse... i think youre right to say some of us havent noticed our lack of rights.. :/

[12:33] Bjork Mokeev: (just to pick on one issue)

[12:33] You: Bjork, payment in this does not change a thing, in SL...

[12:33] You: you get soe more support options...

[12:33] You: some*

[12:34] Gabriels Destiny: i think Smoke would agree that we do not have freedom of expression...

[12:34] You: I dont understand your question Nat [12:34] Wren Quintessa: it's all an illusion

[12:34] Wren Quintessa: most people haven't realised that we don't have what we want, so they don't care

[12:35] Natalie Selentiak: we can whine all we want, but unless the linden's stand to LOSE something when we're disatisfied, why should they care?

[12:35] Gabriels Destiny: true

[12:35] You: freedom of speech is a difficult one ... but take due process as example...

[12:35] Lupe Matova is Online

[12:35] You: thats true Natalie...

[12:36] any1 Gynoid is Online

[12:36] Gabriels Destiny: thats why SLDM's press release called for mobilizing resident demands towards LL, i believe

[12:36] Rin Tae: sure it is .. it is all about many voices calling for it .. and this is a difficult task that seem impossible

[12:36] Natalie Selentiak: for every one of us, there are probably a hundred other people that are happy buying, selling, and talking about porn or whatever....happily oblivious to the current state of their freedoms

[12:37] Triss Gray: well, in a way it's the same in "meatspace"

[12:37] Triss Gray: so many people are happy enough to have th rights they already obtained be ignored

[12:37] Triss Gray: or hollowed out [12:37] Rin Tae: sure .. but I wouldn'T just stop because of it .. some might get converted to thinking a bit more about what they are doing

[12:37] Triss Gray: eg "for sake of security" [12:38] Gabriels Destiny: i have to get back to work .. happy discussions, bye [12:38] Triss Gray: wouldn't say it is a reason to stop

[12:38] Natalie Selentiak: the problem is a little more focused/immediate in meatspace. you don't lose your account - you die

[12:38] Wren Quintessa: bye Gabriels [12:38] Natalie Selentiak: so people are lil more concerned [12:38] Triss Gray: depending on religious beliefs, it can be like loosing an account :-)

[12:38] Natalie Selentiak: lol

[12:38] Triss Gray: and not all rights stuff is about life-ror-death matter

[12:38] Natalie Selentiak: true, but it is of more concern in RL

[12:39] Rin Tae: and I would say, that it should be a concern everywhere .. in a virtual world as well as in the real one

[12:40] Rin Tae: rights are rights no matter where you are actually ... some 'presidents' in some countries (mostly with 'democratic' or 'peoples' written in their names) might disagree with this of course

[12:40] Miroirs Hax: but technically is SL ready for "rights"? i imagine a product like SL is full of security holes

[12:40] Triss Gray: life is full of security holes as well :-)

[12:41] Natalie Selentiak: how many of us are builders/scripters? is there some way to set up an external system where you can only buy something if you're a registered member of SLDM? we could use paypal, not the in-world money transfer system....and users that oppose what we're doing couldn't buy what we produce...

[12:41] Triss Gray: but that doesn't mean you shouldn't try to make the best of it :-)

[12:41] You: then they will never be ready Miroirs .. I guess you point toward a system to garantee them

[12:41] You: but that will have to come into existence step by step ... I think [12:41] Triss Gray: no guarantees in life or on the intarweb :-)

[12:42] Miroirs Hax: no guarantees, but i would guestimate SL is about a magnitude unsafer [12:42] You: Natalie, I am not sure why you would want to make an exclusive closed of group...

[12:43] Rin Tae: online activites are in many cases unsafe out of the users beeing totally careless about what they are doing here

[12:44] Natalie Selentiak: well the problem is more than just the lindens, right? it's the complacent users. if the users registered with SLDM (and I don't think many would mind), we would have a lot more force with the lindens in our dealings with them.

[12:44] You: Miroirs, not sure what you mean .. sorry. But take right of due process - for that, ToS article 2.6 has to be changed, which will force precedents and transparency ... what is the security hole and for whom?

[12:45] Natalie Selentiak: and it wouldn't be closed....it would be open to anyone willing to sign their name to the bill of rights we decide on

[12:45] You: but "we" should not decide on such things...

[12:45] Natalie Selentiak: I thought that's what we were doing here.....deciding on the rights of avvies

[12:45] You: we try to force structures and changes to enable this to be done by the "community"

[12:45] You: Hello Osis, welcome

[12:46] You: when we decide on a particular set Natalie, and we would want that to be imposed on all, than we do the same as LL does and what we oppose ....

[12:46] Natalie Selentiak: hopefully the community cares enough to force anything.

[12:46] Rin Tae: it´s not about writing the rights right now .. this task is too complicated and would need more time then this discussion .. but the how to do it and actually even why it might be a good/bad idea is the question here

[12:47] Triss Gray: we don't want to decide on rights or whatever, we just want "the community" to be able to decide that

[12:47] Natalie Selentiak: except what we choose will be fair.....and improvement on the linden policies.

[12:47] Natalie Selentiak: we=community, after all

[12:47] Triss Gray: we=part of the community :-)

[12:47] Miroirs Hax: i would imagine rights would have to be linked to you as RL person, so that in identity theft or even if you give away your password you can claim your avatar, and your L$'s to be linked to the RL you as well with guarantees that go with it (like a bank)

[12:48] Rin Tae: but this discussion has one semantic problem that might be related to why people are often not concerned about it .. avatar rights .. the avis don'T have rights, we have them as people behind the keyboard

[12:48] Osis String: rights come directly from the creator

[12:48] Triss Gray: mm, I don't really make that distinction

[12:48] Natalie Selentiak: neither do I [12:49] Triss Gray: but I guess many people do

[12:49] Rin Tae: sure, me neither, but I have the feeling, that many do .. thinking that the thought of avi rights is just ridiculous

[12:49] Osis String: there needs to be some standard

[12:50] You: lol OSis, did you just made a case for divine law in SL?

[12:50] Osis String: law...that is one thing

[12:51] You: and yes, I think Rin is right btw, that many do see that distinction

[12:51] Osis String: i agree [12:51] Rin Tae: wb Triss

[12:51] You: Wb Triss

[12:51] Triss Gray: ty

[12:52] Natalie Selentiak: my avie is my property, just like my clothes....I've put money into making her. what linden is capable of is enforcing my dress code and taking my wardrobe.....and I really don't like it when someone steals my clothes. I have the right to keep my clothes! lol

[12:52] Miroirs Hax: i don't see how you can have rights without signing a contract with Linden labs (who run SL) so that you have a "right" on copyright, storage of your avatar, what it creates and has in it's inventory, etc.

[12:52] You: true Miroirs, thats where the ToS comes in

[12:52] You: which we all agreed to

[12:52] Osis String: then is is a matter of property rights?

[12:52] Miroirs Hax: or even that SL remains active

[12:53] Triss Gray: or the means provided to continue SL-like activity

[12:53] Triss Gray: opensourcing the whole lot would do that

[12:53] Rin Tae: it might sounds fanny with the clothes, but the feeling chnages completly, when you have made them yourself

[12:53] Osis String: I see more public institutions gettin in

[12:53] Miroirs Hax: opensourcing would mean people can take all they see etc. no security at all

[12:54] You: which I am sure did not tell there bosses that all their investments and assets could disappear overnight without any way of due process Osis

[12:54] Triss Gray: security through obscuroty = no security

[12:54] Rin Tae: property rights are actually in the middle of this in some cases ... and I think that it might be the point that will get attention first

[12:54] Osis String: open source has worked with other models, but look at how successful W.O.W. has been closed source

[12:54] Natalie Selentiak: it's almost like a storage unit.....maybe we should study the laws that govern what storage unit owners may do with private property......

[12:54] Triss Gray: if you take eg this whole history of the cracked tramway/buscards in nl, had they had the design of that system peer-reviewed, it would'veb een much stronger

[12:55] Rin Tae: WoW doasn't have the user created content part and no buisness operating through it .. only with it

[12:55] Triss Gray: exept illegal chinese farmers :-)

[12:55] Osis String: agree

[12:55] You: but Miroirs, to come back to your comment, thats why SLDM focusses on the ToS, to get this changed ... and Raph with Metaplace of course also incorporated them within the ToS there...

[12:55] Triss Gray smirks 8 bit keys, what were they thinking

[12:56] Miroirs Hax: yeah, you shouldn't run outdated poor security measures, but if you opensource the security measures taken..well, that has to be kept closed and a lot of work put into it

[12:56] Triss Gray: nah, the strongest security systems today are those whose design is open... that means it is secure "by nature", not by secret

[12:56] You: alright, but when talking about user rights within virtual worlds, we at first are talking about rights granted by the "game gods"

[12:56] You: in this case LL

[12:57] Natalie Selentiak: will there be a mcaffee-security-like company on an open-source version of SL that we pay monthly dues to?

[12:57] Triss Gray: fallen game gods :-)

[12:57] Rin Tae: first of all it would need to be seen, if a virtual world can run asopen source thing .. on private servers

[12:58] You: BTW, has anyone objections of having their name show up in the chatlog, when we publish it on our site?

[12:58] Triss Gray: nop

[12:58] Rin Tae: so the technical side is a bit different then the pure rights side of this problem

[12:58] You: if so, do speak up, and we will remove the name.

[12:58] Triss Gray: and put it on our list of shame :-p

[12:58] You: hehe [12:58] Miroirs Hax: :)

[12:58] You: hmm, brb

[12:59] Rin Tae pokes Triss: "Shhh.. don'T tell them that!"

[12:59] Triss Gray: hehe

[12:59] Triss Gray: seriously though, that was a joke, if you object your name will be removed completely

[12:59] Miroirs Hax: along with your avatar, and your hair

[12:59] Triss Gray: we'll personally go flash your memory away from all others present with the men in black flash deviices

[13:00] Rin Tae: I know a shop that sells them!

[13:00] Triss Gray: lol

[13:00] Triss Gray: problem is no one can remember if they really work? :-)

[13:00] Rin Tae: hehe.. anyways ..back to the topic

[13:03] Miroirs Hax: don't you think people will object furries (esp. chickens) and dragons having the same rights, they're on different chains in the foodchain after all (not sure how that works out with dragons)

[13:03] Triss Gray: the technology behind that metaplace thing seems also very interesting btw...seems a very open architecture

[13:04] Triss Gray: I don't mind furries, as long as they don't shed on my couch

[13:04] Miroirs Hax: :)

[13:04] You: back...Rl can be a real pain huh?.

[13:05] Triss Gray: it has it's good sides too :-)

[13:05] You: lol, how did we arrive at furries

[13:05] Rin Tae: speaking of other avi forms, then you have currently sims in SL that are closed to different avi forms by sim rule .. mostly RP sims with a certain setting wher such forms don'T exist .. and with those sims being games actually would a right to be what you want also apeal there?

[13:06] Rin Tae: RP=Role Playing

[13:06] You: good point

[13:06] You: this also came up with interoperability talks .. say, between SL and WoW

[13:06] Triss Gray: well, i guess community empowerment would also mean they'd have the power to decide on that kind of stuff

[13:07] Rin Tae: yes

[13:07] Miroirs Hax: probably not, but it becomes really complicated then

[13:07] Natalie Selentiak: would it be possible for each user to make a mini-sim for their own avatar, with it's own rules....like a physical environment with a certain set of constants....and when you interact with someone, they have to agree to an "overlap" of your mini-sims?

[13:07] Triss Gray: problem is, where do you draw the line between choice and discrimination

[13:07] You: yeah, and will not all world builders just call their world a game?

[13:07] Triss Gray: natalie: very interesting, but now with todays tech I think

[13:07] Triss Gray: not*

[13:07] Natalie Selentiak: :(

[13:08] Rin Tae: but it is a form of what might happen if anyone starts to make their own rights and rules

[13:08] Triss Gray: overlap would mean that the technical stuff would comprehend what everything represents

[13:08] Triss Gray: and adapt it to appearance etc

[13:08] Triss Gray: we can't even get bob do talk decently :-)

[13:08] You: haha

[13:08] Triss Gray: to*

[13:09] You: Bob is our greeter bot :)

[13:09] Triss Gray: but if it'd be possible, then the possibilities are pretty much endless

[13:09] Triss Gray: I remember reading some novell where they had that kind of VR

[13:09] Triss Gray: each participant could see "the world" as they wanted

[13:10] Miroirs Hax: forcing more of a real identity to avatars would be nice and make things easier, but SL would then lose a big part of it's userbase probably

[13:10] Natalie Selentiak: my little island would be a node, and yours would be a node, and before there could be cross-island activity, a prompt would occur that would say something like "smoke wijaya does not agree to freedom of speech. triss gray is a known cyberterrorist. Rin Tae's value for c is not compatible with your current physical settings."

[13:10] Triss Gray: and the technology behind it would adapt the concepts from one participant into the reality of the other, staying "in theme"

[13:10] You: that sounds like a pain though Natalie...

[13:10] Triss Gray: eg you could be in a trainstation, and I could be in tehe far west

[13:11] Triss Gray: and when someone arrives, I would see a horse and carriage, and you would see a train arriving

[13:11] Rin Tae: I guess some standards would solve the technical issues at least

[13:11] Natalie Selentiak: not if you leave most of the decisions up to your computer. you would select tolerance levels

[13:11] Triss Gray: but I don't think we can do that anywhere soon

[13:12] Triss Gray: the problem is a computer doesn't understand those concepts

[13:12] Natalie Selentiak: well isn't it just a mini-version of what is already present on SL?

[13:12] Triss Gray: it would become a very rigid system very fast [13:12] Natalie Selentiak: some sims are fly, others are no-fly

[13:12] Triss Gray: yes, but these are very simple options

[13:12] Rin Tae: but it´s jsut one setting and not so much the decission on a very complicated set of options and rules

[13:13] Triss Gray: how is a computer going to decide if youre av looks enough like a dove to fit in an avian themed sim?

[13:13] Triss Gray: or whjether you're fur is fuzzy enough for superfurworld

[13:13] Natalie Selentiak: oh it wouldn't be that specific....it wouldn't have much to do with rendering at all, actually.

[13:13] Natalie Selentiak: more like setting ideological tolerances

[13:13] Triss Gray: even more difficult

[13:13] You: aint that diminishing of freedom of speech?

[13:14] Wren Quintessa: Natalie you can do that anyway

[13:14] Triss Gray: ideology isn't easily captured in a few checkboxes

[13:14] Wren Quintessa: if you don't like someone, don't talk to them

[13:14] Miroirs Hax: (looking enough like a dove = a screen would pop up in RL texas infront of an unsuspecting texan, if he draws his gun you look like a dove)

[13:14] You: lol

[13:14] Triss Gray: :-p

[13:15] Natalie Selentiak: it would be a slider, I would think....and if you decide to link together sim-nodes, other avatars would have bars that indicate their slider bars values?

[13:15] Natalie Selentiak: like an ideological graph....lol

[13:15] Wren Quintessa: yes but that's so arbitrary

[13:15] Wren Quintessa: you could have the exact same values as someone else, they just think that theirs is a 5 and you think yours is a 7

[13:15] Triss Gray: and too reliant on people judging themselves fairly

[13:15] You: and we are floating away from the topic of user rights I think

[13:16] Natalie Selentiak: ~is for them~ ^.^

[13:16] Triss Gray: yes and no... we're going to have to come up with some ways of governing it all sometime

[13:16] Rin Tae: it´s the user right to look like they want .. I assume the avi apearance being part of the right for free expression

[13:17] Natalie Selentiak: within limits, right? a person could create a gigantic avvie with flexi hair covering it that makes the sim lag.....

[13:17] Triss Gray: but then aren't I free to express my disgust for chicken avatars? :-)

[13:18] Triss Gray: and keeping them out of my part

[13:18] You: imo you are...

[13:18] You: no, not the latter...

[13:18] You: hmm

[13:18] Triss Gray: (not that I would have anything against chicken avs, but hey, it's an apt example :-) )

[13:18] Miroirs Hax: :)

[13:18] Rin Tae: and when it comes to personal taste, then it will get all impossible to judge it in a objective way anyways

[13:19] Natalie Selentiak: in RL, you can't drive a 100 foot by 100 foot vehicle down the road, making the traffic "lag"

[13:19] You: lol

[13:19] You: is true...

[13:19] Triss Gray: you can.... never been to carnaval? :-)

[13:19] Natalie Selentiak: lol

[13:19] You: hehe

[13:20] Triss Gray: it's just slightly more complicated :-)

[13:20] You: but should sims or virtual worlds that clearly have a game story and setting be allowed to discriminate in this manner, on appearance? I somehow think thats pretty reasonable...

[13:20] Natalie Selentiak: should there be a reasonable upper limit to the number of prims a person can use on their av? ~thinks the limit will have to be set, or people who do it to intentionally crash sims will have free reign~

[13:21] Triss Gray: yes, but what if someone "plays" a redneck community and bans all coloured avs

[13:21] Smoke Wijaya nods

[13:21] Rin Tae: I see it as a game actually .. like WoW or other VV out there .. even when it is within the whole of SL that isn'T a game at all

[13:21] Natalie Selentiak: afk

[13:22] Triss Gray: or would all communities have their rules approved by an ethical community? :-)

[13:22] You: you also are not allowed to bring your chess pieces with checkers

[13:22] You: ah Triss, that sounds scary

[13:22] Triss Gray: you aren't? So THAT's why they kicked me out

[13:22] You: lol

[13:22] Miroirs Hax: people should be able to run closed servers and areas with their own rulebook, as long as the rules are stated clearly upon entering fe.

[13:22] Rin Tae: it depends .. there was a case in the RP sim I use to play in .. Midian city .. with a group of skinheads that have been supposed to play the we hate nekos role .. but it appeared, that it was a group formed by a few RL racists and they have been kicked out of the sim very quickly

[13:23] Triss Gray: mm, so playing it is allowed, meaning it not

[13:23] You: well, for LL it is still allowed

[13:23] You: not for that sim

[13:23] Rin Tae: I know people who are total sadistic serial killers in RP and the nicest people out of character

[13:24] Triss Gray: lol, I read that the other way round first :-p

[13:24] Miroirs Hax: again there should be an "about/readme" before entering such a place, don't like it, dont go there, want to run such a place, you have to give a clear description and rules in advance for people entering (as it's a subsection of SL, a game in a more "real" SL)

[13:25] You: I think thats reasonable yes...

[13:25] Rin Tae: there actually is .. many people don'T read it, but such sims have their rules send out in notecards when you enter them

[13:25] Triss Gray: so anything would go, as long as it's anou!nced?

[13:25] Miroirs Hax: pretty much, as long as there's some sort of barrier (more then now)

[13:26] Rin Tae: thats the problem Triss .. would really anything go?

[13:26] Triss Gray: how long would you think untill the media cry wolf again and restart the whole ageplay-and-stuff

[13:26] Rin Tae: a few seconds ..not longer

[13:26] Triss Gray: it wouldn't even have to be true :-)

[13:26] Triss Gray: and after that, RL law enforcement would come sniff at your doors

[13:27] You: hmm, we enter dangerous waters :) [13:27] You: since when LL announces its rules trough ToS and we agree...

[13:27] Miroirs Hax: there could be an overlaying lawbook, anything goes has it's limits

[13:27] Triss Gray: well, in a way the tos is like it or leave it, the way we would have communities do it

[13:28] You: in a way, yes

[13:28] Miroirs Hax: when avatars have rights / linked to a RL person , it's also easier to put up a lawbook and people abiding by it

[13:28] Triss Gray: so what we actually want is to be able to do what LL does :-)

[13:28] Miroirs Hax: giving SL it's limits [13:28] You: will it? all dispersed Rl laws then :)

[13:29] You: that was re Miroirs

[13:29] Rin Tae: the problem that will show up then, is the fact that the people here are coming from all over the world so finding any solution for laws that would cover all national regulations would be next to impossible

[13:30] Miroirs Hax: sure but i mean you can sanction through SL itself

[13:30] You: with what national law as basis then? [13:31] Triss Gray: some would say "where the server is based"

[13:31] Rin Tae: it is either a only SL law or a RL law for virtual world wide operating worlds

[13:31] You: you mean that avatars are less able to hide in anonimity?

[13:31] You: I think so too Rin

[13:32] Triss Gray: and who's to put together that law? UN?

[13:32] You: and I think we should go fpor the former, but than Internet-law...

[13:32] Miroirs Hax: SL's law, you signing a contract agreeing with, an avatar linked to your identity giving you rights but also mean you can be penaltised in extreme cases (ageplay, etc.)

[13:33] Rin Tae: but even SL law would recuire fairness and the ability to stay innocent until proved guilty ... so law stays law only the world changes

[13:34] Rin Tae: and the question stay .. if it is somethin to be implemented by a god or by the community

[13:34] Miroirs Hax: hmm yeah, well, "proving" something in SL is also rather difficult

[13:34] Rin Tae: but it is still the key if it has to be in any way fair and just

[13:35] Triss Gray: but even fair and just are not universal

[13:35] Rin Tae: of course not... it is jsut all about coming as near as possible to the ideal

[13:37] You: sorry, RL frustrating again ... but we are touching on some pretty deep questions :) divine law against democratic/social contract, objective and subjective morals, universailty ... neat

[13:38] Miroirs Hax: i think setting up a few base laws in SL for really morally injust extremes would work well enough, more detailed matters fe. theft of things in SL is more complicated

[13:38] You: and who is to enforce and judge those, Miroirs?

[13:38] You: and as Rin already said, who should decide on them

[13:38] Rin Tae: yes.. I think the extreme cases can be handled relativels good .. but where will those laws came from?

[13:39] Miroirs Hax: fair and just are close to universal Triss, without going too deep, a reazoning intellectual brain comes up morals that are mostly the same everywhere

[13:39] You: not true....

[13:39] Triss Gray: yes, but the "implementation" varies wildly

[13:40] Rin Tae: I would want to agree with Miriirs.. but I fear, that this might not be the case

[13:40] Miroirs Hax: then you can't have laws or rights period.

[13:40] Miroirs Hax: i may violate your rights, i determine that's right

[13:41] You: there are some who conclude that from extrem negative liberty viewpoint yes

[13:41] Rin Tae: but we should abstract from radical views for the moment .. so the question of morals and laws would be easier to solve

[13:42] Rin Tae: because I think, that if we cut the radical believes for the moment, then Miroirs assumption will hold true

[13:43] Triss Gray: bwof, not that long ago it was fair and just to burn people at the stake :-)

[13:43] Miroirs Hax: again (getting back to practical) SL doesn't need too many laws besides copyright, right to exist, right to your avatar etc. and banning really extreme morally offencive content (grosely violating "humanoid" rights, (under)age play, torture, whatever) only the very extreme

[13:43] You: sexual ageplay you mean I think

[13:43] You: and torture? roleplay torture?

[13:44] You: so...ban on violence?

[13:44] Wren Quintessa: it's interesting though becuase you have to consent to the "torture"

[13:44] Rin Tae: if it is role play, then you need to consent for everything like this

[13:45] Miroirs Hax: ban on violence is probably the conclusion you have to take if you want rights on avatars

[13:45] Wren Quintessa: some people enjoy the violence thoguh

[13:45] You: I don't think we have to conclude that at all

[13:45] Rin Tae: you would need to define violance then ... I would say, that running through a sim randomly orbiting people is the SL form of violance

[13:45] You: we already established that we are not talking just about the representation, about the avatar entity, but at least about the connected entity with the agent

[13:47] You: why are we trying to conclude that common sense conduct to live together should be codified to a solid structure?

[13:47] You: behaviour*

[13:48] You: does harassing people not already cover this anyway?

[13:49] Triss Gray: but some people enjoy harassing :-)

[13:50] You: I can see how places ban violence (and they already do) but how is this going to work for roleplay sims? they have to get a license?

[13:50] Triss Gray: then we're back to "who's giving out the licenses"

[13:50] Miroirs Hax: probably Smoke, an "anything goes" licence and a barrier

[13:50] Triss Gray: aka who will decide the laws

[13:52] Rin Tae: not to forget, that thre are all sorts of RP sims with different settings, so it is rather the question of are those games not covered by the general SL rights .. or is it simply tht any community can give itself rights and fallow them like they want to?

[13:52] You: good point

[13:53] Rin Tae: because I think this is the thing .. communities decide for themselves, even when it is a double edged sword to have this with the possiblity for racists for example to create a community with racist rules

[13:53] Smoke Wijaya nods

[13:53] Wren Quintessa: hey guys, discussion was great, but I'm going to run. 'twas wonderful to hear all your ideas

[13:53] Miroirs Hax: SL would make the laws, which you agree with contractually, so in a sense you make the laws

[13:53] You: Bye Wren, see you later

[13:53] Rin Tae: byebye

[13:53] Miroirs Hax: see you

[13:53] Wren Quintessa: bye

[13:53] Triss Gray: not that you guys are boring, but i'm falling asleep :-)

[13:53] Triss Gray: so I guess bed-wise would be wise :-)

[13:53] You: hehe

[13:54] Triss Gray: what was that quote from clockwork orange again

[13:54] You: dont know...

[13:54] Triss Gray: bedwise is .....

[13:54] You: but I wish you a goodnight then

[13:54] Miroirs Hax: good to see you again Triss, see you next time

[13:55] Rin Tae: sleep well

[13:55] Triss Gray: ah, 't was: 'Bedways is rightways now, so best we go homeways. Right?

[13:55] You: dont know, but sounds good

[13:56] Triss Gray: never seen the movie?

[13:56] Miroirs Hax: worth putting on a tile (except you can't read the tile when not home, and once home homeways makes no sense so the tile is rubbish)

[13:56] You: hmm, shall we keep this discussion to what we have now? Rins last comment is a good closing note I think :)

[13:57] Triss Gray: was an interesting session

[13:57] Miroirs Hax: nice to meet you all

[13:57] You: will see if I can write something for the blog tomorrow

[13:57] You: likewise Miroirs

[13:57] Miroirs Hax: where can i find the blog?

[13:57] You: good to have you here

[13:58] Triss Gray: apparently now at sl-dm.org as well

[13:58] You: well, we are still in the process of moving, but the new one is http://sldemocraticmovement.org/

[13:58] Miroirs Hax: ah, thanks

[13:59] Miroirs Hax: goodnight

[13:59] Triss Gray: we'll see :-)

[13:59] You: Goodnight Miroirs

[13:59] Rin Tae: goodnight