SL Issues Discussion_21Oct08

[12:16] Smoke Wijaya: well, we might as well start ... these discussions are of a free format, we do not have a moderator, we are all grown ups :)
[12:16] Triss Gray: *cough cough* ;-)
[12:16] Smoke Wijaya: Wb KirShan
[12:16] KirShan Andel: whay's a grown up papa?
[12:17] Smoke Wijaya: Rin, get Ernest in here :)
[12:17] Triss Gray: permission to use force! ;-)
[12:17] Rin Tae: hehe... we are about to start, I have been doing the greeting so far, but now it´s time for the discussion so I do what Smoke jsut teold me and get you in there
[12:17] KirShan Andel: hehe
[12:17] Smoke Wijaya: lol .. pushing him
[12:18] Triss Gray: or cage
[12:18] Smoke Wijaya: Hey Ernest!
[12:18] Smoke Wijaya: good to see ya
[12:18] Triss Gray: cage'n drag
[12:18] Smoke Wijaya: lets start ...
[12:18] Rin Tae: I think we can start now
[12:18] Ernest Newman: hey y"all
[12:18] KirShan Andel: hi Ernest
[12:18] Smoke Wijaya: Topic this week: "Need, possibility and the "how to" to implement a secure, trusted voting system for spaces such as SL"
[12:19] Triss Gray: hey ernest
[12:19] Smoke Wijaya: we have discussed this as well the last time .. but got stuck with the "who", so we would like to skip that part of the discussion today
[12:19] Rin Tae: last time we discussed mostly the who is going to vote, but the how to do it is equally important
[12:20] Smoke Wijaya: and since it is a theoretical discussion .. lets not just bomb everything impossible when it is not 100% secure or directly conceivable...
[12:20] Triss Gray: the voting itself isn't very complicated actually
[12:20] KirShan Andel: i read on wiki that LL organised something like a letter dropping room where everyone said their opinions
[12:20] Triss Gray: a) a way to authenticate the voter (the wholeo ne voice thing)
[12:20] KirShan Andel: perhpasa polliig box is possible in SL?
[12:20] Smoke Wijaya: as said, discussion is free, so floor is open
[12:21] Triss Gray: b) a registered voted anonymised
[12:21] Smoke Wijaya: KirShan, we wont be able to create secure and trusted system on LL's servers, especially not inworld.
[12:21] Triss Gray: layered on top of todays secutrity standards, aka https and the lot
[12:21] Rin Tae: a letter droping box is a good start, but there is no mechanism that ensures, that the complains are being read
[12:22] Smoke Wijaya: right Triss, I see...
[12:22] Smoke Wijaya: you know, I have looked around the web for existing all-internet voting systems ...
[12:22] Rin Tae: the LL sould still be a part of it, but voting needs overseeing by all intrested sides not jsut one as a LL based system would be
[12:22] Smoke Wijaya: I came across one experiment by the US army, for absantees...
[12:23] Triss Gray: we need something like the icann for domain names
[12:23] Triss Gray: except then that they shouldn't be us-only :-)
[12:23] Smoke Wijaya: but that has been stopped in 06 I thought due to concerns around security
[12:23] Smoke Wijaya: Wb Vent
[12:23] vent Rust: ty much my friend
[12:23] KirShan Andel: wb Vent
[12:23] Triss Gray: yes, but that's for RL voting, where the security stakes are also that much higher
[12:23] vent Rust: ty Kir
[12:23] Ernest Newman: Is it indeed technically feasible to have a fair, accurate vote online?
[12:24] Smoke Wijaya: let me find a link, with diagram of that system ..
[12:24] Triss Gray: eg in this case I guess you wouldn't have to worry that much about forced votes
[12:24] Smoke Wijaya: http://people.howstuffworks.com/e-voting4.htm
[12:25] Rin Tae: I´m not so much worried about manipulation of voting towards a specific outcome actually .. not at the moment at least .. what is more important here would be prevention from griefer attacks
[12:25] Triss Gray: the rl paper voting system isn't unhackable anyway
[12:25] Triss Gray: how do you mean rin? like denial of service attacks to kill the servers?
[12:25] Smoke Wijaya: Ernest, I do hope so .. and I think it will be .. but the internet is the promise for more direct democratic and decentralised structures for RL governance as well, imo.
[12:25] Smoke Wijaya: to me
[12:26] Triss Gray: hehe, I would love to be able to vote online for rl :-) no need to queue up in an old school :-)
[12:26] KirShan Andel: the link.... it clearly points out the fact that ppl can ensure anonimity only on a third party site
[12:26] Rin Tae: any attacks .. like moving all votes to some joke candidate or mixing it all up jsut for the fun of destruction
[12:26] BELOVED Docherty: I was once in a contest where my friends had to come vote for me...i got my alt to come vote for me and I was disqualified...I learned that we have indentification numbers.
[12:26] KirShan Andel: or no?
[12:27] Triss Gray: kirsten: it's a matter of trust
[12:27] Triss Gray: and it's easier to trust a party which doesn't have a direct stake
[12:27] KirShan Andel: "Local Election Officials (LEOs) used terminals at their local sites to access an LEO server. This server connected to the FVAP server, which transmitted the encrypted ballots addressed to that LEO site over the Internet. Once the ballots arrived, a computer at the LEO site decrypted them and printers produced paper copies. LEO volunteers transcribed the printed results onto paper-based absentee ballots."
[12:27] Triss Gray: aka third party
[12:27] Rin Tae: if you trust the third party to ensure that it is fair and right, then it can be uesed to oversee the election process
[12:27] vent Rust: what kind of ID numbers KIr cuz u can share a cmter
[12:28] chinaski Coen is Online
[12:28] Smoke Wijaya: Beloved, avatar keys
[12:28] KirShan Andel: that's tricky
[12:28] Triss Gray: vent: ll has some kind of hashing system
[12:29] KirShan Andel: or say ip address
[12:29] Triss Gray: they can somewhat securely identify unique computers
[12:29] Triss Gray: it works a bit like the windows activation if you know that
[12:29] KirShan Andel: though that is a double edge knife, unless it is encrypted
[12:29] Rin Tae: but to do that, Linden involvment would be needed
[12:29] Smoke Wijaya: but I really do not think we can talk about a system *within* SL
[12:29] vent Rust: ok Rin someone would have to look up from LL
[12:29] vent Rust: ?
[12:30] Rin Tae: to check IP adresses from avis here
[12:30] Triss Gray: smoke: depends on what you see as within
[12:30] Rin Tae: but as Smoke said, such system would better be based not in here but on a website
[12:30] Triss Gray: eg it could be "inside" the client without necessarily going through LL
[12:30] Smoke Wijaya: on LL's servers, as well as within the SL world, the 3D one
[12:30] Triss Gray: a bit like the vivox voice system
[12:30] Smoke Wijaya: ah right...
[12:31] Triss Gray: where the voice client is part of the sl client
[12:31] Smoke Wijaya: but the trusted third party is outside
[12:31] Triss Gray: but the voice things itself are not processed by LL
[12:31] Smoke Wijaya nods
[12:31] KirShan Andel: "in early 2004, the DOD canceled the experiment due to concerns about security issues, ending the program before the implementation phase. Specific concerns included voter anonymity being compromised or hackers intercepting and manipulating ballots sent over the Internet."
[12:31] Triss Gray: the voting "part" would have to be open source of course
[12:31] Smoke Wijaya: yes KirShan, but I also think that they do see the danger of creating this for the government :)
[12:32] Triss Gray: so one could eg read the source and compile it yourself, to be sure nothing phishy is inside
[12:32] Rin Tae: and knowing the record of last US elections .. they were right about fearing manipulation
[12:32] Smoke Wijaya: Triss, good point...
[12:32] Smoke Wijaya: software, open source or closed?
[12:32] Triss Gray: hehe i'm all for OSS
[12:32] Smoke Wijaya: what gives greater security
[12:32] Smoke Wijaya: ?
[12:32] Smoke Wijaya: I tend to think OS
[12:32] Rin Tae: software would need to be open source to ensure, that people can check, that the code does not contain anything fishy
[12:33] Smoke Wijaya nods
[12:33] Triss Gray: it's been proven many times that security through peer review works better then security through obscurity
[12:33] Smoke Wijaya: right
[12:33] Ernest Newman: lol...none, it would seem, can guarantee security, at this time
[12:33] Triss Gray: my typing hits an alltime low this eve
[12:33] Smoke Wijaya: thats 100% Ernest
[12:33] Rin Tae: but then .. overseeing the third party that it indeed is doing what it should and is not manipulated itself
[12:33] Triss Gray: 100% security doesn't exist
[12:33] Smoke Wijaya: nothing can be perfect outside of abstract math
[12:33] Ernest Newman: agree with views that multi-party supervision is necessary
[12:33] Triss Gray: like 100% guarantees do not
[12:34] Triss Gray: but each extra layer of security helps
[12:34] Triss Gray: and I think being able to see what's going on is an extra layer in itself
[12:34] Ernest Newman: wel, but the online voting succeptability to hackers seems quite substantial...not a matter of 100%, heh
[12:35] Rin Tae: thats where supervision is neccessary, to see and block attacks
[12:35] Triss Gray: but there are ways of making "sure enough" to be able to be used I think
[12:35] Triss Gray: it's like driving a car
[12:35] Triss Gray: the risk is low enough that you do it
[12:35] Ernest Newman: agree also tat SL issues not as...critical...as rl issues, heh
[12:35] Smoke Wijaya: and in Rl it aint perfect either, but we still do them..
[12:35] Smoke Wijaya: true Ernest
[12:35] Smoke Wijaya: of course
[12:35] Triss Gray: the stakes are a bit lower yes :-)
[12:35] Triss Gray: for the moment at least
[12:36] Rin Tae: it would be a start and actually virtual worlds needs such systems with the ideas of resident rights coming up
[12:36] KirShan Andel: but the concerned users will not be as reassured
[12:36] Triss Gray: you could also see it as an experiment for rl stuff
[12:36] Smoke Wijaya: yes TRiss, thought that as well
[12:36] Triss Gray: the things that could be learned here about how to deal with such a process
[12:36] Ernest Newman: would be good to forge ahead, and set precedent, test methods, try to establis, develop, improve prospects for virtual voting
[12:36] Triss Gray: could later be applied to rl stuff
[12:36] KirShan Andel: say, they will think, i want to vote, but it can risk my own SL registration
[12:37] Rin Tae: and .. as KirShan said .. to prove to users that it works and is secure
[12:37] KirShan Andel: that can be perception
[12:37] Triss Gray: mm, that's why the vote should be anonymous
[12:37] Triss Gray: same reason it should be rl
[12:37] Smoke Wijaya: it would be great way to be on the forefront of a democratic metaverse with acknowledgment of civil rights -and- to experiment for RL, to see how direct democracy can be worked out
[12:37] Triss Gray: one shouldn't have to fear repercussions
[12:37] KirShan Andel: but many do Triss
[12:38] KirShan Andel: better to go unnoticed, they say, than to loose all
[12:38] Rin Tae: that is the damn 'for any or no reason' article in the ToS
[12:38] Smoke Wijaya: amen
[12:38] KirShan Andel: so there must also be a way of teaching the ordinary joe and jill
[12:38] KirShan Andel: i mean, even in roleplay games
[12:38] KirShan Andel: it seems that one can get banned for no reason
[12:39] KirShan Andel: just like that
[12:39] KirShan Andel: /flickers gingers
[12:39] Triss Gray: I think the risk is limited, in the sense that before such a system can exist, LL would have to publicly say they will oblige outcomes
[12:39] Ernest Newman: well, in SL, the voting should occur at log-in, seems to me...perhaps be required, TO log in, heh...
[12:39] KirShan Andel: so, first of all, there must be meetings with LL
[12:39] Smoke Wijaya: btw, we are both thinking about a voting system for issues of the Sl community and LL, as well as voting for individual groups in SL, which should get more different ways of management avaiablke, including one where groups democratically decide on assets etc
[12:39] Triss Gray: nono, first there must be cookies :-)
[12:40] Triss Gray: then there will be revolution - and dancing :-)
[12:40] Triss Gray: and then we'll talk ;-)
[12:40] KirShan Andel: lol...space cakes as well ?
[12:40] Rin Tae agrees about the cookies
[12:40] vent Rust: good priorities
[12:40] BELOVED Docherty: gotta go
[12:40] KirShan Andel: cya Beloved
[12:40] vent Rust: k byez :)
[12:41] Rin Tae: but the point is .. so far there was little that would indicate the LLs interest in these issues
[12:41] Triss Gray: true
[12:41] Rin Tae: that is a bit of a problem hindering the efforts done
[12:41] Smoke Wijaya: talking with LL ... now think for a moment they will say, "ok, we will start talks with your group" ... what have we then? just another elitist venue with LL for some feted individuals
[12:41] Triss Gray: isn't that why we exist? :-)
[12:41] Triss Gray: after all, why should they be interested in all that
[12:41] KirShan Andel: but sldm itself is still anonymous
[12:41] Triss Gray: it's not in THEIR interest
[12:41] KirShan Andel: so LL will not make moves as yet, for thy would shoot themselves in their own feet
[12:41] Triss Gray: apart from that it is imho "the good thing" to do
[12:42] Ernest Newman: but it seems to me that LL has, indeed, responded, somewhat to the pressures from "the masses"...
[12:42] Smoke Wijaya: yes KirShan, so it is not LL to which we turn, but to the other people
[12:42] Triss Gray: especially as long as "the masses" are still so used to being bullied by corps of all kinds
[12:42] Smoke Wijaya: with what Ernest?
[12:42] Triss Gray: ernest: mostly with cosmetics though
[12:42] KirShan Andel: take the copybot case
[12:42] Ernest Newman: well, it may be superficial, bu it seems their rhetoric is more accomodating to concerns being expressed
[12:42] KirShan Andel: LL did not flinch
[12:43] KirShan Andel: though many threatened to close their shops and businesses
[12:43] KirShan Andel: that is a real concern for LL, not aesthetics
[12:43] Triss Gray: kirshan: much of that was drama rather then "politics" :-)
[12:43] Ernest Newman: in several respects...ad farms, prioritizing stability over bling, and perhaps othr issues
[12:44] Rin Tae: our hope is still in reaching enough people to start discussions ... so that the idea would go out into the world and make more popele talk about it .. as hard and ilusionary as it might sound
[12:44] Triss Gray: do the prioritize stability over bling? or did they just run out of new bling? :-)
[12:44] Smoke Wijaya: well, they might have taken some steps that are applauded by residents, like starting to really crack down on adfarms, as well as the use of the forums for feedback ... BUT, this all is superficial. They can play nice now, as long as it is in their interest, but the basis, the ToS, is not changed.
[12:44] Smoke Wijaya: anyway, voting.... :)
[12:44] KirShan Andel: agreed Smoke
[12:44] Ernest Newman: while I agree we can't count on LL to do whatever is right, or reasonable, just because we ask...it does seem we can hold out some hope for motion ofn their part, if we appy enough pressure
[12:45] Smoke Wijaya: we an only apply true pressure together...
[12:45] Smoke Wijaya: that might sound kumbayah and all
[12:45] Smoke Wijaya: but it aint :)
[12:45] Triss Gray: hehe
[12:45] KirShan Andel takesout the weights
[12:45] Smoke Wijaya: even when just seeing money as their incentive, then stil we need masses to act together
[12:45] Rin Tae: besides, a voting system might not only help to organize communities here, but in other places as well
[12:46] KirShan Andel: tat's granted Rin, then one might agree to a more collective voting, not just SL
[12:46] KirShan Andel: especially if sing a 3rd party site
[12:46] Triss Gray: it would be a good thing if people started to realize more they don't have to take all tosses for granted
[12:47] KirShan Andel: this way, the statement will be more powerful, and insiders job less likely to occur
[12:47] Smoke Wijaya: KirShan, what you mean with the "more collective voting, not just SL"
[12:47] Rin Tae: but back to how to vote and as a third party site was mentioned again .. how would supervising the third party be done?
[12:48] KirShan Andel: more collective, sorry, that is there are othere platforms like SL
[12:48] Smoke Wijaya: right...
[12:48] Triss Gray advertises his age old dell keyboard that never ever breaks, and makes nice oldskool clacking sounds when you type
[12:48] KirShan Andel: so, if instead off focusing on TOS by SL, it becomes a more general voting system
[12:48] KirShan Andel: to implement a general direction for also any future platform
[12:49] Rin Tae: that would be a goal, but for now, focusing on SL issues is a good start
[12:49] Smoke Wijaya: but the voting regarding community and LL, SL gridwide, ToS, LL is the "central authority" still ... and other platforms have their own central authoritie KirShan ... so, that wont work without a decentralised interoperable metaverse
[12:49] KirShan Andel: i am not talking about metaverse, but politics here Smoke
[12:49] Smoke Wijaya: and other platforsm you said
[12:50] KirShan Andel: yes, that is, other worlds like second life
[12:50] Smoke Wijaya: yes, the system could then be used for their respective worlds, but not collectivily together
[12:50] Triss Gray: in what way is that not the concept of a metaverse?
[12:50] Triss Gray: it doesn't have to mean the same everywhere :-)
[12:51] KirShan Andel: one sec i tell u
[12:51] vent Rust: What do we mean here now
[12:51] Smoke Wijaya: well, we better focus on SL first I think anyway, and would want to point to Rins question above
[12:52] Smoke Wijaya: Rin Tae: but back to how to vote and as a third party site was mentioned again .. how would supervising the third party be done?
[12:52] Rin Tae: I guess, that even with a interoperable metaverse, a voting system would be different for each world or even reigon that would be controlled by a community .. so I don'T think, that the future will be in a big all metaverse voting system but more in a community voting system
[12:52] Smoke Wijaya: I agree
[12:53] Smoke Wijaya: hmm brb
[12:53] Triss Gray: no, but why couldn't they use the same system, if applicable... all communities would be part of "the metaverse", without the need to have metaverse-wide rules
[12:53] Rin Tae: I agree .. if such a system would work, then all could use it
[12:53] Triss Gray: a bit like a confederal state works today, I think
[12:53] Triss Gray: perhaps "framework" is moire applicable then
[12:54] KirShan Andel: that is what i meant, yes
[12:54] Rin Tae: but that still don'T answers the question of how overseeing should be organized
[12:55] Triss Gray: well, partially the "voting system" will not have any interest in the outcome, due to the differences, and that in itself helps ensuring against misuse a bit :-)
[12:55] Rin Tae: ohh... and btw .. since Smoke seem to have forgotten about it and I have not thought of it either .. can we post the chatlog of this discussion on our blog/website?
[12:55] Triss Gray: and this time, the copy paste should even work without issues :-)
[12:55] Smoke Wijaya: back
[12:55] Triss Gray thinks he has fixed them
[12:56] Smoke Wijaya: *reading back*
[12:56] Triss Gray: as for the oversight problem
[12:56] Smoke Wijaya: right..
[12:56] Triss Gray: the way the org works would have to be rather transparent
[12:56] Rin Tae: as transparent as possible
[12:57] Triss Gray: and audits etc could be done by yet another third party
[12:57] Triss Gray: bit like accounting audits now
[12:57] vent Rust: who would pay for that?
[12:57] Triss Gray: good q
[12:57] KirShan Andel: research sponsors?
[12:57] Smoke Wijaya: and I think that outcomes should be send to different (maybe random) locations...to have files to check against.
[12:58] KirShan Andel: according to Smoke and the article, ther may be interested parties about....
[12:58] Rin Tae: in the end, such orgs would have to be either payed by noone or by all .. so risk of financial pressure by one group is ruled out
[12:58] Smoke Wijaya: would it be expensive vent?
[12:58] Triss Gray: mm, location doesn't mean much in virtual worlds :-)
[12:58] Smoke Wijaya: Triss, server
[12:58] vent Rust: we could get volunteers to audit in a near perfect world .. just a thought...
[12:58] Triss Gray: don't think it would have to be very expensive
[12:59] Triss Gray: mm, but you need people skilled enough to do it as well rin
[12:59] vent Rust: they exist but have to loook
[12:59] Triss Gray: I mean, if you don' t know enough about the subject, you could be easily overwhelmed by what such a company would proclaim
[12:59] Rin Tae: I guess if volunteers from each interested side can be found plus some acting as uninvolved observers, then it could be organized on this basis
[13:00] Triss Gray: a bit like smoke nods yes when I go technical ;-)
[13:00] Smoke Wijaya: lol
[13:00] Ernest Newman: surely there are universities, foundations, etc etc working on the issues of developing, improving, securing online voting...they should be approached re: working with us in SL
[13:00] vent Rust: teach and learn needed
[13:00] Triss Gray: how does it work now actually :-)
[13:00] Smoke Wijaya: Ernest, that would be good idea I think...
[13:01] Triss Gray: mostly the press I guess who "supervises"
[13:01] Triss Gray: and we all know they aren't the best judge :-)
[13:01] Smoke Wijaya: just what I said .. when skimming the web for e-voting .. the only all-internet voting system is of the link I pasted
[13:01] Smoke Wijaya: that I could find
[13:01] Smoke Wijaya: too bad this has to be the US army from all parties possible .. sigh
[13:02] Rin Tae: still bettere then the CIA
[13:02] Smoke Wijaya: lol
[13:02] Triss Gray: well, say of the us army and others whatever you want, but fact is that many things we take for granted today started there
[13:02] Smoke Wijaya: same
[13:02] KirShan Andel: gtg, got a class to attend to
[13:02] Smoke Wijaya: oh shush Triss
[13:02] vent Rust: get smarter Kir have a good class
[13:02] Rin Tae: bye KirShan
[13:02] Triss Gray: even the internet ;-)
[13:03] KirShan Andel: thanks Rin, cya
[13:03] Ernest Newman: I agree with your previous remarks, that, especially under Republican admin, we cannot expect them to really pursue viable online voting, heh...they don't want a fair and accurate vote, lol...would prefer to foist off diebold, lol...but perhaps we'll see more positive motion, at least somewhat, under the new admin
[13:03] Smoke Wijaya: but you forget CERN there Triss
[13:03] KirShan Andel: ciao Smoke, and g'night the rest :)
[13:03] Rin Tae waves to KirShan
[13:03] Smoke Wijaya: Bye KirShan
[13:03] Smoke Wijaya: see you later
[13:03] vent Rust: k byez :)
[13:03] Smoke Wijaya: have fun
[13:03] Triss Gray: yes sure, they didn't all do it themselves
[13:04] Triss Gray: but a lot of todays tech at least started as a military project
[13:04] Triss Gray: I don't say that's a good thing
[13:04] vent Rust: but we are here now
[13:04] Smoke Wijaya: lets do that as sldm anyway, trying to find more parties and examples of dveelopment in this area
[13:04] vent Rust: and that is good thing
[13:04] Triss Gray: but it also doesn't necessarily have to imply ONLY bad stuff comes from it
[13:04] Smoke Wijaya: almost all is focussed on the eletronic machine sin RL though
[13:05] Triss Gray: (besides, one of the cern people was a belgian ;-) )
[13:05] Smoke Wijaya: too bad that is also called e-voting often
[13:05] Rin Tae: thats becuase since someone thought, that the neighbours cave was bigger, people always put most thought into developing a bigger club to hit someone else over the head with it
[13:05] Smoke Wijaya: lol
[13:05] Smoke Wijaya: aint that the truth Rin
[13:06] Triss Gray: true enough
[13:06] Triss Gray: it's in all of us :-)
[13:06] Ernest Newman: yeah...I want to bash some capitalist pigs, lol
[13:06] Smoke Wijaya: ok, when there is no paper trail, how can outcomes be checked/controlled for fraud
[13:06] Triss Gray: AND take their caves
[13:07] Smoke Wijaya: we have said audits..
[13:07] vent Rust: some sort of special identifying feature
[13:07] Triss Gray: you could create a paper trail a well
[13:07] Triss Gray: some sort of secure printout of your vote
[13:07] Smoke Wijaya: maybe spreading different encrypted outcomes to trusted orgs, so more third parties, but just as volt (sp?) for outcome....
[13:08] Triss Gray: but would be hard to get all pieces together if proof was needed
[13:08] Rin Tae: a paper should exist and any interested party should have the right to see it .. or have it send to them
[13:08] Ernest Newman: not sure I understand the obsession with "privacy" and anonymity...seems only way fer it to be accurately monitored is with complete transparency, and substantial verification
[13:08] vent Rust: have to use threat of audits and do random testing
[13:08] Smoke Wijaya nods
[13:09] Triss Gray: well privacy/anonymity is I guess the basis of any democratic system?
[13:09] Triss Gray: if you can't be sure "they" can't know what you voted
[13:09] vent Rust: have to give a little of ID up
[13:09] Triss Gray: that influences your vote
[13:09] Smoke Wijaya: Ernest, we pretty much agreed on that last time, that we need strong RL ID verification for this...not the avatar gets rights, the persona behind it has them
[13:09] Ernest Newman: well, but especially with electronic methods, it seems more complicated than with paper ballots
[13:09] vent Rust: but now how one votes
[13:09] Triss Gray: you'd need to id in order to be able to vote yes
[13:09] Triss Gray: but the vote itself shouldn't be coupled to that id
[13:10] Triss Gray: aka the vote is anonymous, any given voter isn't
[13:10] Ernest Newman: and I, for one, care little about whether people know where I stand on any given issue or candiate
[13:10] Triss Gray: what if your life depended on it, to make it dramatic?
[13:10] Rin Tae: still voting anonymity has to be ensured for the one who is voting
[13:11] Triss Gray: and still, whether you care or not, I don't see any disadvantage in NOT being able to trace a vote back to a voter
[13:11] Smoke Wijaya nods
[13:11] Ernest Newman: well, only issue is verification
[13:12] Triss Gray: hehe, that part was discussed last time :-)
[13:12] vent Rust: like a age verification thing system
[13:12] Triss Gray: prettyè heated debate :-)
[13:12] Ernest Newman: that your vote is accurately reported
[13:12] Rin Tae: only that the system has been totally flawed and not trusted
[13:13] vent Rust: look at systems that work that are similar and go from there
[13:13] Smoke Wijaya: for that reason we are talkign about RL agents, not the avatars. and yes, the age verification they tried to implement was a fraud
[13:13] Triss Gray: mm, perhaps not a fraud
[13:13] Triss Gray: rather a joke
[13:13] Triss Gray: and a bad one at that
[13:13] Smoke Wijaya: fraud
[13:13] Smoke Wijaya: to get RL info for the verifying company
[13:13] vent Rust: well dont throw the baby out with the bath on systems see why it did not work
[13:13] Smoke Wijaya: to sell
[13:14] Ernest Newman: "due diligence" cover-your-ass
[13:14] Smoke Wijaya: Hello Markup
[13:14] Smoke Wijaya: welcome
[13:14] vent Rust: only as good as what ppl giv
[13:14] Markup Melnik: lol...greetins all
[13:14] Rin Tae: and that is the problem too .. such system would be needed
[13:14] vent Rust: hi Markup
[13:14] Triss Gray: mm, though I agree the current system is heavily flawed, I don't really believe in bad intentions, at least not from LL side
[13:15] Triss Gray: just bad judgment, and we know they have troubles with that :-)
[13:15] Rin Tae: but they have been rather blindly trusting someone promising them the impossible
[13:15] Triss Gray: that's called naivity
[13:15] Triss Gray: but not fraud :-)
[13:15] Smoke Wijaya: ok ok
[13:15] Smoke Wijaya: not by LL
[13:15] vent Rust: first have to go with reasonable parameters
[13:16] Smoke Wijaya: "Tech Designer" .. that sounds good for this discussion :)
[13:16] Triss Gray: ?
[13:16] Smoke Wijaya: we are discussing a voting system, secure, trusted, for spaces such as SL Markup
[13:16] Triss Gray: ah k
[13:16] Triss Gray: his title :-)
[13:16] Ernest Newman: "trust" is not going to cut it...must have technical means to "police" the process, or it's just a useless exercise
[13:16] Triss Gray: nm
[13:16] Markup Melnik: oh...k
[13:17] vent Rust: back to the audits then
[13:17] Ernest Newman: or, relatively useless, anyway
[13:17] Triss Gray: you could see it as trust enforced by technical and other means :-)
[13:18] Ernest Newman: as long as "faith" is not involved, heh
[13:18] Smoke Wijaya: amen
[13:18] Triss Gray: hehe, let's keep that far away from this yes
[13:18] Rin Tae: hehe
[13:19] Ernest Newman: so, I propose contact with techies, institutions researching, working on this issue of electronic voting, of whatever means...inviting them to join us in experiments, development in SL
[13:19] Triss Gray: history has proven many times tat faith and trust are mutually exclusive :-)
[13:19] Rin Tae: agree on that Ernest
[13:19] Smoke Wijaya nods
[13:19] Smoke Wijaya: yes..
[13:20] Triss Gray: i wonder how that other virtual world is going to tackle that, the one with rights for avs, what was it called again
[13:20] Ernest Newman: including those we worked with before, who balked re: proprietary rights
[13:20] Smoke Wijaya: I will pase once more the link about the only e-voting system atm I could find, that os the US army: http://people.howstuffworks.com/e-voting4.htm
[13:20] Smoke Wijaya: Triss, Metaplace
[13:21] Triss Gray: yes, that
[13:21] vent Rust: most systems which depend on public providing input depend on assumption of Honor and well humans involved so there will be issues so again need threat of audits then must think of penalties
[13:21] Triss Gray: capital punishment of course ;-)
[13:21] vent Rust: LOL
[13:21] vent Rust: yes of course
[13:22] Rin Tae: but this is an issue for the voting communities to decide on
[13:22] Triss Gray: everyone judged to fraud the system is to peddle on a bike powering a metaverse server till death
[13:22] Rin Tae: not really one that is of concern for the voting system as such
[13:22] Ernest Newman: Death to anti-democratic traitors to humanity!
[13:22] Smoke Wijaya: lol
[13:22] Triss Gray: rin, true, but you would need it established before the voting system could be trusted
[13:22] vent Rust: biggest penalty i can see is u cant play with us no more
[13:22] Markup Melnik: what about logging people's uuid number?
[13:22] Triss Gray: bit of a catch 22
[13:22] Smoke Wijaya: but I think we can be quite sure that the US army wont want to give specs of their system :)
[13:22] vent Rust: what if they share
[13:23] Markup Melnik: or are we talking RL too?
[13:23] Smoke Wijaya: Markup .. that one is for every account...not coupled to Rl ID...
[13:23] Markup Melnik: kk
[13:23] Smoke Wijaya: well, Markup, we do think that when such a voting system for a space like SL can be set up, it would also be a great opportunity to test such a system, to apply later on RL governance
[13:23] Triss Gray: we saw it more like that the vote would be "bound" to a natural person, not an account as such
[13:24] Smoke Wijaya: as well of course other communities on the net
[13:24] Triss Gray: but that was handled last time :-)
[13:24] Smoke Wijaya: seems pretty reasonable to me
[13:25] Rin Tae: I still think, that the voting system as such should be given to communites to work with ... so punishments for manipulation would be in the decission of the community .. the problem would be, if the third party is not build up from volunteers form the community, how to punish it´s memebers if they manipulate the outcome
[13:25] Triss Gray: maybe we can Ruth them forever :-) that's a pretty big scare :-)
[13:25] Rin Tae: I mean .. punishments and such things would be a problem if the people controlling the vote would be not part of the voting community
[13:26] Triss Gray: the problem is also that there you thread into the waters of rl law
[13:26] Rin Tae: othersise, the community decides
[13:26] Triss Gray: which is in turn different in different places
[13:26] Rin Tae: of course
[13:26] vent Rust: have to do case by case basis maybe
[13:26] Rin Tae: have to be writen down I think
[13:27] Ernest Newman: well, thwarting democratic process should be the ultimate TOS violation, lol...subject to virtual death...
[13:27] vent Rust: will not be able to for see everything so each time an issue comes up will need some sort of judgment
[13:27] vent Rust: but whose judgment
[13:28] Smoke Wijaya: yes Rin, I agree very much with what you said, otherwise you will get the infinite regress of who is watching the watchers
[13:28] Rin Tae: of course, but I think any community would be good advised in writing down it´s rules and waht they decide their laws should be (if any)
[13:29] vent Rust: Katherine Harris can watch us ;) jk ...
[13:30] Ernest Newman: form an alliance, a federation of sims, willing to intitiate their TOS, mandating popular democratic rule
[13:30] Ernest Newman: their own TOS
[13:30] Smoke Wijaya: but besides local governance, I still think such a true meaningful voting system is very much needed around "negotiation of ToS/policy"-issue. Take for instance the issues around adfarms and mainland zoning, while asking for forum feedback, which is good, there is no check on the final policy.
[13:31] Smoke Wijaya: Ernest, you come close to MetaverseRepublic there
[13:31] Triss Gray: allhough the outcome in case of adfarming isn't that hard to even guess :-)
[13:31] Smoke Wijaya: although it is very much tied to land ownership.
[13:32] Ernest Newman: but ultimately, without the necessary, viable, "trustworthy" software for voting, the whole thing is pretty abstract
[13:32] Smoke Wijaya: yes
[13:32] Rin Tae: the problem with democratic sims in SL is the undemocratic and unflexible group system .. with the current group system the forming of trully democratic communities is almost impossible and totally dependand on the good intentions of the people invovled
[13:33] Smoke Wijaya: that system is what we need to think about ... as long as it is not meaningfull, it is but superficial game if they let us vote on issues...
[13:33] Ernest Newman: again...seems a software issue
[13:33] Smoke Wijaya: also..
[13:33] Smoke Wijaya: yes Rin
[13:33] Ernest Newman: must have practical means to reliably poll actual sentiments of the people...
[13:34] Smoke Wijaya: Ernest, for the software goes the same I think as with the whole system ... I could only find someting regarding thst US army experiment .. but software is not avaiable me thinks...
[13:34] vent Rust: easy in small numbers it gets tricky as numbers increase
[13:34] Rin Tae: as always
[13:34] Markup Melnik: Any way for every account to be restricted to one voting avatar?
[13:35] Ernest Newman: well, I can look into it...seems I have seen reference to some who have been working on it...but it may well be that nobody has come up with anything yet...
[13:35] Smoke Wijaya: every natural person, one vote
[13:35] Smoke Wijaya: but that has to be tied to SL account of course..
[13:35] Ernest Newman: most of the military stuff was probly via diebold, heh...they give such contracts to their friends, lol...we can hope the Democrats will seek real alternatives more assiduaously
[13:36] Smoke Wijaya: who will call the Pentagon?
[13:36] Ernest Newman: welll, but fk Diebold, heh...
[13:36] Triss Gray: mm, the democrats are no saints either you know :-)
[13:36] Smoke Wijaya: about superficially speaking indeed
[13:36] Ernest Newman: not saying they are...but they are "better" than a poke in the eye with a sharp stick, from the Republicans
[13:37] vent Rust: sinners in both parties of course
[13:37] vent Rust: all parties
[13:37] Ernest Newman: a deep subject, heh, but I do see profound differences, between the parties....
[13:37] Smoke Wijaya: but before we go on US politics analysis .. and probably bash the shit out of that island, lets focus a bit on the votingsystem still, yes?
[13:37] Ernest Newman: especxially when you get past the Blue Dog (conservative Democrat) triators
[13:38] Ernest Newman: so, if no viable technical means exists, where do we go from there?
[13:38] vent Rust: fair voting would have made a big difference i think the tie in
[13:39] Ernest Newman: paper ballots, for all SL residents?
[13:39] Smoke Wijaya: what do we have? 1. the system needs to be tied to LL (servers) but not on them and controlled by LL, so, 2. a trusted, transparent, accountable thrid party has to be created....
[13:39] Triss Gray: mm, don't agree with 1)
[13:39] Smoke Wijaya: ok
[13:40] Triss Gray: it's handy if it's tied in to the viewer
[13:40] Rin Tae: ohh.. the Email adress of the DARPA .. the US military research institue if someone wants to ask aobut the voting system: webmaster@darpa.mil .. ;)
[13:40] Smoke Wijaya: how do we check whether they are user of SL?
[13:40] Smoke Wijaya: or whatever space or community that vote is about
[13:40] vent Rust: has anyone asked LL ppl if they want anything to do with this
[13:40] Ernest Newman: heh...bet you it was all diebold, with daarpa
[13:40] Triss Gray: the problem with LL is they always reply sure
[13:41] Triss Gray: and then just carry on :-)
[13:41] Smoke Wijaya: ok Triss, but the viewer is tied to the servers, when trusted
[13:41] Ernest Newman: LL already has done log-in polls...just insist they expand on that...require a vote, to log in, on selected issues...
[13:41] Triss Gray: the viewer connects to servers, but the part of a voting something being in the viewer doesn't have to mean tied to LL
[13:42] Triss Gray: but since we seem to agree on what we mean, it's just semantics :-)
[13:42] Smoke Wijaya: ok Triss, but how do we check if they are resident of SL?
[13:42] Smoke Wijaya: and...
[13:42] Triss Gray: mm, LL would have to open an auth api
[13:42] Triss Gray: for that
[13:42] Ernest Newman: even if they do so n a superficial, non-binding manner, it will lead people to expect results...will up the pressure on them
[13:43] Triss Gray: but that's already more or less in place
[13:43] Rin Tae: you can expand that question Smoke and ask, how a community would identify its members
[13:43] Smoke Wijaya: we talked about (SL) age limit last time, as a reaosnable restriction ... how do we check that?
[13:43] Smoke Wijaya: probably true Ernest
[13:43] Smoke Wijaya: another member said something like that a while ago..
[13:43] vent Rust: the more I think about this the more I think some sort of physical involment needed .. paper .. cattle turnstyle ... flesh branding
[13:44] Smoke Wijaya: ok Triss I am not going to nod, so .. what is an "auth api" and how does that work?
[13:44] Smoke Wijaya: also development...
[13:44] Triss Gray: authentication api
[13:44] Smoke Wijaya: are there other things that have to happen for that?
[13:44] Smoke Wijaya: yes, that I understood
[13:45] Triss Gray: a way to programmatically check whether an account/pwd (or other) combination exists
[13:45] Triss Gray: eg against LL member databases
[13:45] Smoke Wijaya: ok
[13:45] Ernest Newman: well, the ultimate basis "trust" in any social group, is knowing who you are dealing with, transparency...how people can claim a "right" to anonymity, and expect to be trusted, is beynd me
[13:45] Smoke Wijaya: yes..that sounds like what I had in mind would be necesary
[13:45] Smoke Wijaya: is that difficult?
[13:45] Smoke Wijaya: would they have to open up a lot?
[13:45] Triss Gray: well, it already exists
[13:45] Smoke Wijaya: will security get breached by that?
[13:45] Triss Gray: somewhat
[13:45] Smoke Wijaya: oh
[13:46] Triss Gray: only atm you can only sign up new users
[13:46] Triss Gray: not check for current
[13:46] Smoke Wijaya: ok
[13:46] Triss Gray: but I actually just had an insight
[13:46] Smoke Wijaya: hallelujah
[13:46] Triss Gray: why not see it bigger then checking against LL databases
[13:46] vent Rust: yay share
[13:46] Smoke Wijaya: go on
[13:46] Rin Tae: smoke is getting religiuos tonight
[13:46] Triss Gray: let's just turn around the system
[13:46] Triss Gray: like openid
[13:47] Triss Gray: you trust your identity to a third party of your choice
[13:47] Triss Gray: and when you want to logon to sl, or vote, or check your mail for all it matters
[13:47] Triss Gray: you tell the application (in this case eg sl client) i'm this guy, and you can go checkj that there
[13:47] Triss Gray: not sure if i'm making myself clear
[13:48] Markup Melnik: I see it...
[13:48] Smoke Wijaya: yes, I understand what you mean I think...
[13:48] Triss Gray: a bit like the age verification
[13:48] Triss Gray: only you get to choose who you trust with it
[13:48] Ernest Newman: well, this part is not unimportant, but seems to me the main trust issue is whether the votes will be accurately counted, or electronicaly manipulated
[13:49] Smoke Wijaya: but conections between LL and the different trusted third parties should still get established
[13:49] Smoke Wijaya: doesn't that mean that LL should trust them as well?
[13:49] Markup Melnik: no....
[13:49] Triss Gray: yes sure, as always, there has to be some "watching the watchers"
[13:50] Smoke Wijaya: Ernest, true .. is important as well
[13:50] Triss Gray: they could eg limit the allowed id providers to certain trustworthy ones
[13:50] Markup Melnik: It would be a check system for them but they don't need to use it
[13:50] Ernest Newman: identification of the voter should be relatively easy...but what happens to that vote, after it is cast?
[13:50] Triss Gray: and you could perhaps even choose LL as your id provider, if they would go into such services
[13:50] Triss Gray: and if you trust them with it
[13:51] Rin Tae: thats why I have always asked about overseeing the third party, Ernest .. it should be checked no matter how trusted it is
[13:51] vent Rust: who does the checking... a panel..?
[13:52] Markup Melnik: setup communications with something like a S3 database and link it to the ID of the booth
[13:52] Rin Tae: I would say, checking should be done by volunteers from all sides taking part in the voting and observers from outside groups
[13:53] Smoke Wijaya: that was like chinese to me Markup, kind of
[13:53] Triss Gray: or something like the orgs who currently check iso norms for example
[13:53] Smoke Wijaya: what is "the ID of the booth"?
[13:54] Ernest Newman: obviously, al linterested parties should be involved in the verification of the vote...but how accurate and reliable can the verification be, against electonic hacking?
[13:54] Markup Melnik: sory, if you're voting using an object or some identification window
[13:54] Markup Melnik: pass the "vote" through some sort of verification database
[13:54] Ernest Newman: at best, perhaps the instance of hacking can be detected?
[13:54] Smoke Wijaya: thus attaching ID to vote in process after casting...
[13:55] Ernest Newman: even ifnot exaclty what it did?
[13:55] vent Rust: so long all for now
[13:55] vent Rust: k byez :)
[13:55] Smoke Wijaya: Bye vent, good to have you here. see you
[13:55] Rin Tae: bye
[13:55] Smoke Wijaya: Ernest, I would really not know...
[13:56] Triss Gray: there are technical means to do so yes
[13:56] Triss Gray: quite complicated ones :-)
[13:56] Ernest Newman: from what I've read, thus far, nobody cn secure electronic vote, period...impossible, at this time
[13:56] Smoke Wijaya: but are they talking about 100% security?
[13:56] Rin Tae: no reason to stop trying to me
[13:56] Smoke Wijaya: they probably are
[13:56] Triss Gray: nobody can secure paper vote :-)
[13:56] Triss Gray: fake voting bulletins can be inserted etc
[13:56] Ernest Newman: not even "acceptable" level of security...like, it's 100% vulnerable, it seems, lol
[13:57] Smoke Wijaya: nah, I dont think that is true Ernest...
[13:57] Rin Tae: and thats where overseeing comes into play .. the better it works, the more difficult it is to fake a vote
[13:57] Smoke Wijaya: we also bank on the net .. and they can create quite secure systems
[13:57] Smoke Wijaya: although no system can stand social engineering of course
[13:58] Ernest Newman: well, only ones advocating use of electornic voting presently are Republicans, who seek to rig elections...all Democrats, progressive elmennts are syaing it's impossile to adeqautely secure
[13:58] Smoke Wijaya: and that might be very well the case
[13:58] Triss Gray: sorry, but I don't think politicians are the correct parties to judge such stuff
[13:58] Ernest Newman: no reason to give up on concept, but evidently , it's fo the future
[13:58] Smoke Wijaya: the evetual full fullfillment of some goals surely are Ernest, yes
[13:59] Ernest Newman: heh...you cynicism is well founded, Triss, but perhaps over broad
[13:59] Triss Gray: i'm not saying we're there yet
[14:00] Triss Gray: but politicians and technical stuff in general do not mix too well
[14:00] Rin Tae: when it comes to US politics, then .. from my outside view ... cynism and thinking that they will declare the sky being pink when it serves their goals looks like something vers true
[14:01] Smoke Wijaya: sorry, phone there ...
[14:01] Triss Gray: was it echelon? :-)
[14:01] Smoke Wijaya: lol
[14:01] Smoke Wijaya: can that talk?
[14:02] Triss Gray: they have pretty good voice synthesizers these days
[14:02] Smoke Wijaya: simulating my brother's voice
[14:02] Smoke Wijaya: lol
[14:02] Triss Gray: they probably wanted a sample of your voice for the database
[14:02] Triss Gray: ;-)
[14:02] Smoke Wijaya: well, at least halliburton is sniffing on my packets
[14:02] Smoke Wijaya: lol
[14:03] Smoke Wijaya: or something...
[14:03] Triss Gray: talking about packet sniffing... but i'll keep that story for a better time :-)
[14:03] Triss Gray resists the urge to sidetrack :-)
[14:03] Rin Tae: hehe
[14:03] Smoke Wijaya: whenever I turn on peerguardian2, half hollywood, half the worlds governments and halliburton get blocked...
[14:03] Rin Tae: we are sidetracked enough by now
[14:03] Triss Gray: mea culpa
[14:03] Smoke Wijaya: I have to say that my brain is shutting down
[14:04] Rin Tae: no problem .. it was a good discussion tonight
[14:04] Smoke Wijaya: it was
[14:04] Triss Gray: a fruitfull one
[14:04] Smoke Wijaya: but we might want to continue them more on the forum..
[14:04] Smoke Wijaya: post chatlog ...
[14:04] Smoke Wijaya: but also maybe make a minutes as well..
[14:04] Smoke Wijaya: to ease further discussion on points
[14:04] Rin Tae: who has the chatlog?
[14:04] Triss Gray: it would perhaps help if we created excerpts of the logs, with the main points brought forward
[14:05] Triss Gray: but that's a lot of work
[14:05] Smoke Wijaya nods
[14:05] Smoke Wijaya: will save it at least Rin