SL Issues Discussion_25Nov08

[12:25] Smoke Wijaya: well, we do not have that much of a crowd tonight, but that does not make the topic any less important :)
[12:25] Smoke Wijaya: This week we thought to focus a bit on Terms of Service article 3.2.b, regarding deletion by LL of your account...
[12:25] Triss Gray: shall i logon some bot alts? :-d
[12:26] Smoke Wijaya: behind me it is stated on the sign like it is stated in the ToS
[12:26] Rin Tae: yes, the article is on the board if anyone wants to read it
[12:26] Smoke Wijaya: did you guys read the ToS wehn you signed up?
[12:27] Smoke Wijaya: when*
[12:27] Smoke Wijaya: I did not ...
[12:27] Retterger Serpente: i don't remember
[12:27] Triss Gray: I skimmed through it
[12:27] JoseAlfredo Saenz: Neither did I
[12:27] Rin Tae: I have not either .. only later I saw some rather .. unfair .. articles
[12:28] Triss Gray: but decided to accept anyway since I wanted to find out what it was all about
[12:28] Freemason Magic: i dont because i know the risk
[12:28] Smoke Wijaya: and only later thought it is ridiculous that in a world created by its users, by usercreated content, the contract could contain text like "for any reason or no reason, without any liability to you" regarding deletion of your content....
[12:28] Freemason Magic: im taking
[12:28] Retterger Serpente: same here, since it was free
[12:28] Rin Tae: the same here .. and I guess most people jsut wanted to find out
[12:28] Retterger Serpente: just wanted to see what it was all about
[12:28] Freemason Magic: we are nieve sometimes
[12:28] Freemason Magic: is good to inform yourself
[12:29] Freemason Magic: in the details
[12:29] Retterger Serpente: i did hear some things have recently been banned
[12:29] Retterger Serpente: is this true?
[12:29] JoseAlfredo Saenz: I don't see anything wrong with it, after all the servers belong to LL
[12:29] Smoke Wijaya: not sure what you mean, but I think you arre talking about the Banking-ban, the Gambling-ban, the Sexual Ageplay-ban....
[12:30] Retterger Serpente: smoke yes
[12:30] JoseAlfredo Saenz: they may unplug the whole world if they want
[12:30] Smoke Wijaya: but that is more like conduct that got banned....not much to do with the content...
[12:30] Retterger Serpente: saw some youtube news videos on that
[12:30] Smoke Wijaya: although that is connected of course.,..
[12:30] JoseAlfredo Saenz: and this is not going to change as long as our virtual property won't be located in our own computers
[12:30] Smoke Wijaya nods...good point
[12:30] Rin Tae: yes, but the contant was done by us .. so it´s their server, but our creations what in my opinion, changes the whole idea of 'their' world since in fact it would be quite empty if it would be jsut 'theirs' without all of the people filling it with content
[12:31] JoseAlfredo Saenz: If LL don't do it, then others will
[12:31] Retterger Serpente: yes, after reading or watching videos on this place, it was my understanding that this was a place for users to create whatever they may choose
[12:31] Smoke Wijaya: bvut Jose...we could argue that the world, not the platform, albeit located on LL's servers, is not solely their property in practice....their product, the SL world (not the SL grid), is created by us, not them. And they monetarize on it.
[12:32] Retterger Serpente: but recently, it seems more restriction has occured
[12:32] Smoke Wijaya: even when it is legally defined ( still) as their property
[12:32] JoseAlfredo Saenz: yes, and that is their very capitalistic business *grin*
[12:33] Smoke Wijaya: yes, but that does not mean that with the emerging of such worlds, with this complex business model, the same ToS's should be used...
[12:33] JoseAlfredo Saenz: meanwhile we should educate ourselves (and try to educate others if possible) in other alternatives to SL that are beginning to appear
[12:33] Smoke Wijaya: yes, definitly
[12:33] Smoke Wijaya: like the different OpenSim grids...
[12:33] Rin Tae: it is, but the question is, if it is really still aproporate to have such rules ... we can demand the contant we own here and even when it´s jsut pennies for any single user, it is a lot of money if you think it as the whole
[12:33] JoseAlfredo Saenz: like Croquet, eg.
[12:34] Smoke Wijaya: but Jose, we also think that we should keep pushing for a paradigm change so you will, in the idea of corporations controlling such spaces ... especially with LL/SL as being front runners, together with IBM and OpenSim in AWG, of interoperable 3D web....
[12:34] Rin Tae: not only alternatives, a world like SL would also need to change according to other worlds
[12:34] JoseAlfredo Saenz: Once LL realize "their" "business" may be at risk, they'll have to change their policies, or die
[12:35] Rin Tae: that is a possibility
[12:35] Smoke Wijaya: thus not give up on SL and its critical mass of users and content
[12:35] JoseAlfredo Saenz: Definitely - critical mass is... well, critical :)
[12:36] Rin Tae: we hope they change .. but it is a bit of a question if such rules will be present everywhere or if it wil lchange towards more user rights and security of your posseions
[12:36] JoseAlfredo Saenz: but we must also promote in some way other alternatives too, so they at least exist
[12:36] Smoke Wijaya: yes
[12:37] Triss Gray: yèes, it is my firm belief that serious competition, especially in open source form, would be enormously beneficial
[12:37] Retterger Serpente: is there any alternative to SL right now?
[12:37] Triss Gray: and certainly if it's compatible
[12:37] JoseAlfredo Saenz: Not really
[12:37] Triss Gray: nothing that has this depth and width
[12:37] Smoke Wijaya: Retterger, the biggest competition comes from SL-clones, who are still behind in possibilties with SL...
[12:37] JoseAlfredo Saenz: I mean, the technology is there, but only geeks use it at the moment
[12:38] Rin Tae: there are some worlds showing up, but their possibilites are highly limited compared to SL
[12:38] Smoke Wijaya: but is from reverse engineered SL server code ... namely OpenSim
[12:38] Triss Gray: mm, not exactly smoke
[12:38] Smoke Wijaya: ok
[12:38] Smoke Wijaya: OpenSim is not based on libsl?
[12:38] Triss Gray: they reverse engineered the protocol, not the code
[12:38] Smoke Wijaya: ah ok
[12:38] JoseAlfredo Saenz: not only, there is also Croquet
[12:38] Rin Tae: and when you look at the general SL population, then I think only a small part of them are your usual geeks .. so it doas have appeal for many people
[12:39] Retterger Serpente: why did SL get rid of gambling
[12:39] Retterger Serpente: ?
[12:39] Smoke Wijaya: Croquet...I dont know much about that
[12:39] Smoke Wijaya: Retterger, US law
[12:39] JoseAlfredo Saenz: I think you're correct, Rin
[12:39] Rin Tae: there is a virtual world starting in gemrany now, but I have forgoten the name
[12:39] Retterger Serpente: hmm
[12:39] Triss Gray: (the difference being that you look at the communication between client and server and implement that same type of communication, but not necessary executed in the same way, whereas reversing the server code would more be like making a copy of the way it is done now)
[12:39] Smoke Wijaya: ok, I see...
[12:40] Retterger Serpente: a law telling u how u can spend your money, funny
[12:40] Retterger Serpente: yet states have lotteries, very similar
[12:40] Triss Gray: well, actually i don't care much for gambling :-) good riddance I say :-)
[12:40] Smoke Wijaya: well, poker made me a lot of donations for different groups :)
[12:40] JoseAlfredo Saenz: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Croquet_project
[12:40] Retterger Serpente: Triss but that's the point, if you don't like something, allow others to do what they like
[12:40] Smoke Wijaya: thanks Jose
[12:41] Retterger Serpente: and they should respect what you enjoy
[12:41] Retterger Serpente: to each their own
[12:41] Rin Tae: it´s RL law, and whatever we are talking about regulations like this in a virtual world, we can not forget about it .. it is always present
[12:41] Triss Gray: but what about the visual scourge that was casino's? :-)
[12:41] JoseAlfredo Saenz: URL: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Croquet_project
[12:41] JoseAlfredo Saenz: Sorry for repeating myself, I'm lagging ;)
[12:42] Smoke Wijaya: no problem
[12:42] Rin Tae: we are used to lag
[12:42] Smoke Wijaya: sseems interesting, will look further into it later .. have it bookmarked
[12:42] JoseAlfredo Saenz: the most exciting that Croquet offers IMO is that such a system would allow you to maintain your own sim in your own computer
[12:42] Triss Gray: in fact, i get suspiciuous something must be wrong if there's no lag :-)
[12:43] JoseAlfredo Saenz: lol Triss
[12:43] Smoke Wijaya: yes, we need to move eventually to a decentralised metaverse, both in governance and powering...
[12:43] Rin Tae: when you start to laugh about lag .. thats the best sign that you are not a neewb anymore
[12:43] Smoke Wijaya: lol
[12:43] Triss Gray: hey, I never was a newb ;-)
[12:43] JoseAlfredo Saenz: ie. complete control over your content and your resources in your own terms
[12:43] Triss Gray: I'm born a pro ;-)
[12:44] Retterger Serpente: noob here
[12:44] Rin Tae: ohh.. before we forget again .. are you okay with us puting the chatlog of the discussion on our website?
[12:44] Triss Gray: sure am
[12:44] JoseAlfredo Saenz: I don't have anything against
[12:44] Smoke Wijaya: if not, we will substitute your name
[12:44] Rin Tae: if not, then we will change your name to 'anonymous' for example
[12:44] Smoke Wijaya: :)
[12:45] Smoke Wijaya: alright, article 3.2.b .... is there a reason for LL, other then to make sure they are not accountable ever, for not having to give a reason for deletion of your content?
[12:45] Triss Gray: convenience?
[12:46] Triss Gray: eg you can never complain if something disappears
[12:46] Rin Tae: giving a reason might mean, to admit, taht they have made a mistake
[12:46] JoseAlfredo Saenz: avoidance of eventual liability, IMO
[12:46] Triss Gray: it would mean they are not even bound to a "best effort" commitment to retrieve your stuff
[12:46] JoseAlfredo Saenz: exactly, after all SL started as a highly experimental system
[12:47] Rin Tae: it´s past the experiment stage since some time now
[12:47] Triss Gray: hehe, well even now a lot of "experimenting" is done inworld ;-)
[12:47] Rin Tae: or at least .. it should be past the experiment stage
[12:47] JoseAlfredo Saenz: I wouldn't be so sure :)
[12:47] Retterger Serpente: why is Linden considered a research group? what exactly was the research aspect?
[12:47] Smoke Wijaya: well, let start experimenting with accountability :)
[12:47] Triss Gray: well, when they started the whole thing
[12:48] Triss Gray: it was quite revolutionary, technologywise
[12:48] Rin Tae: and it is still socially wise
[12:48] Triss Gray: I mean, that was long before everyone and his cat had an own blog
[12:48] Triss Gray: and before every site allowed you to comment, or share your musicall taste with the world, or ....
[12:48] JoseAlfredo Saenz: SL is just the tip of an iceberg, like NCSA Mosaic and the first HTTP servers once
[12:48] Triss Gray: the "concept" of it could be seen as reasearch at the time
[12:48] Retterger Serpente: ic
[12:49] Rin Tae: don'T forget that is is also a 3D envoirament and not 'flatweb' like the rest
[12:49] Triss Gray: everything you take for granted now most likely started with someone being laughed at for his/her weird ideas you know :-)
[12:49] Retterger Serpente: they are still growing exponentially?
[12:49] JoseAlfredo Saenz: IMO it is still research - and will be still for a long time
[12:49] Triss Gray: no, they were slightly shrinking
[12:49] Smoke Wijaya: I dont think SL/LL is the only force ... but at the moment, also within the AWG with IBM and OpenSim, I do think they are a important part for eventual standards and protocols ffor interoperability...
[12:49] Rin Tae: still growing, but not that fast anymore
[12:49] JoseAlfredo Saenz: I mean, will still be for a long time :)
[12:50] Rin Tae: I think when standards are being developed, then LL will have a say in them
[12:50] Triss Gray: landmass was at a net loss last month
[12:50] JoseAlfredo Saenz: Probably yes
[12:50] Rin Tae: their current position allows for it .. but then .. will they also implant the need of such regulations into them?
[12:50] Triss Gray: though, in a way, ll's way becoming the standard may not be beneficial
[12:51] JoseAlfredo Saenz: In any case standards can also change. Does anyone here remember gopher?
[12:51] Triss Gray: technology has evolved meanwhile
[12:51] Triss Gray: yes, I do
[12:51] Rin Tae: maybe standards wil change, but you still have a lot of power when you are developing them
[12:51] Triss Gray: it's called the disadvantage of the pioneer or sth
[12:51] Smoke Wijaya: I have not even heard of gopher :)
[12:51] JoseAlfredo Saenz: remember how it was kewl and bleeding edge once upon a time?
[12:51] Retterger Serpente: i wish i had joined much earlier, when things were freer
[12:52] Triss Gray: meaning that because you are the first, after some time you will likeley be "behind" others that started later on what you learned
[12:52] JoseAlfredo Saenz: gopher was a protocol once people used instead of HTTP
[12:52] Rin Tae: right now, .. with google giving up and microsoft not even starting, there is little competition on the creating standards part
[12:52] Triss Gray: well, i'm not that happy with google lately anyway
[12:52] Triss Gray: the whole don't be evil thing starts to crumble away a little
[12:53] Rin Tae: they are evil and data mining
[12:53] Rin Tae: but lively will be shut off at the end of the year, so google is out of the game
[12:53] Triss Gray: take for example this whole openid thing
[12:54] Triss Gray: "google supports openid"... yeah right
[12:54] Smoke Wijaya: I really wonder if google will not take over an already viable platform,, like SL ... I mean, they have the capital to make Lively into soemthing broad and viable over time me thinks....
[12:54] Triss Gray: openid is a way of authenticating yourself, so that you can have the same user/passwd thing on multiple sites, while still being able to share only select info with sites
[12:54] Smoke Wijaya: right...
[12:55] Triss Gray: and the idea is you can choose yourself who you trust the most to store tha t info for you
[12:55] Triss Gray: sites participating openid can do 2 things: be a provider, eg allowing other sites to verify users with you
[12:55] Smoke Wijaya: I think such a thing will eventually exist for interoperable 3D virtual spaces as well....
[12:55] Rin Tae: and this is a biiig buisness
[12:56] Triss Gray: or be a client, allowing access to your services using other openid providers
[12:56] Smoke Wijaya: ok
[12:56] Triss Gray: now google ofcourse has become a prirovider
[12:56] Triss Gray: eg you can use gmail passwd to log onto another site
[12:56] Triss Gray: but, they don't allow openid's not "owned" by google access to their services
[12:57] Triss Gray: thereby somewhat voiding the whole thing
[12:57] JoseAlfredo Saenz: onto another google site *grin*
[12:57] Triss Gray: a bitl ike m$ does: embrace and extend
[12:57] Smoke Wijaya: hmmm
[12:57] Triss Gray: the whole idea is: if you have one openid anywhere, you can use that to access all openid enabled sites
[12:57] Smoke Wijaya: well, also another reason why we need to get rid of the centrally controlled services
[12:58] Triss Gray: not: register an openid anywhere and logon with that to only select others
[12:58] Triss Gray: smoke :exactly, this is what openid would accomplish
[12:58] Rin Tae: or block those you dan't want .. like those owned by a differeent provider practically stoping any form of free market
[12:58] Triss Gray: since anyone can be an openid provider
[12:59] Smoke Wijaya: brb, phone
[12:59] Triss Gray: anywa, in short, google is not my hero (anymore)
[12:59] Triss Gray: and it may also be an indicvator that whatever ideals you start with can be corrupted
[12:59] Triss Gray: see also: philipp linden :-)
[13:00] Rin Tae: sad as it is ... but you are right
[13:00] JoseAlfredo Saenz: NOt necessarily - FSF has proven *very* hard to corrupt
[13:01] Smoke Wijaya: back
[13:01] JoseAlfredo Saenz: I mean, the ideal behind it
[13:01] Rin Tae: wb
[13:01] Triss Gray: lol, yes, but they are hardly a corporation
[13:01] Triss Gray: and on the other hand, they do sometimes err on the other side
[13:01] Triss Gray: I mean, you can be too hardline
[13:01] JoseAlfredo Saenz: Do you still believe in corporations?
[13:01] JoseAlfredo Saenz: :O
[13:02] Rin Tae: of course it´s hard to expect a corporation to keep teir ideals when they have shareholders lurking over them
[13:02] Triss Gray: well corporations is a good enough term for "big business"
[13:02] Triss Gray: whoever trades ideals for profits can be found there :-
[13:02] Triss Gray: compromise is possible you know
[13:03] JoseAlfredo Saenz: directly for monetary profits, I would say
[13:04] JoseAlfredo Saenz: As a programmer I use a lot of free software, and also have had the chance to offer a modest contribution to it
[13:04] Rin Tae: I still would say, that the article posted on the board there is hindering the development of the SL economy .. if people would have security of theri investment, then they would most likely invest more .. so being nice and giving away some rights would increase theri profits
[13:04] Smoke Wijaya: yes, I think that is a realistic demand....
[13:04] Smoke Wijaya: security of investments
[13:04] JoseAlfredo Saenz: Probably yes, and probably it's just a matter of time
[13:04] Triss Gray: sure, but the sl economy is not a "goal" for them, it's just a "tool" for profit :-)
[13:05] Rin Tae: of course it´s jsut a guess, but security of investment is a big issue if you think about bigger sums you would want to invest into something
[13:05] JoseAlfredo Saenz: but it won't hurt to help time a little ;)
[13:05] Smoke Wijaya: and the same goes for your account of course in this regard, article 2.6
[13:05] Triss Gray fires up the time machine
[13:05] Rin Tae: yes .. but the economy is payign them .. the land tiers are part of it after all
[13:05] Smoke Wijaya: the biggest
[13:06] Smoke Wijaya: part
[13:06] Triss Gray: mm, yes and no
[13:06] Triss Gray: there are also lots of not "for profit" tiers
[13:06] Triss Gray: eg my home :-)
[13:06] Triss Gray: no profit there :-)
[13:06] Triss Gray: this place
[13:06] Triss Gray: etc
[13:06] JoseAlfredo Saenz: not for you, probably
[13:06] Rin Tae: somoene is paying for it and the money goes to LL .. so it´s profit for tem
[13:06] Triss Gray: sure, someone makes money out of it
[13:06] JoseAlfredo Saenz: but I wouldn't be that sure that not for anyone
[13:07] Triss Gray: but me renting that place doesn't contribute to the sl economy
[13:07] Triss Gray: only to the ll economy :-) and a bit that of my landlord
[13:07] JoseAlfredo Saenz: to the meta-economy :)
[13:08] Smoke Wijaya: I thought LL stil makes it largest part of their profit directly from tier payments by the SL userbase, which is mostly, I thought around 80%, people like you and me, or their businesses and orgs
[13:08] Rin Tae: you are not tping around and shopping like some other people!
[13:08] Triss Gray: yes, but what i'm trying to say is that SL economy and LL profit are not always the same
[13:09] JoseAlfredo Saenz: and that's an *extremely* interesting point
[13:09] Triss Gray: me paying a third party in real dollars and them paying LL in real dollars doesn't have much to do with sl economy, if you see what I'm getting at
[13:09] Triss Gray: is that sarcasm? raises brow :-)
[13:09] Rin Tae: yes, but those people are all tping around and shopping or going into clubs and giving tips to DJs and they use it for buying more things etc. etc. .. and without people, no one would rent land from LL, so it is all interconnected
[13:10] Triss Gray: yes, most things in rl and sl are in some way
[13:10] Triss Gray: the flapping of a butterfly :-)
[13:10] JoseAlfredo Saenz: and LL id God :)
[13:10] Smoke Wijaya: but yeah, it is probably true that LL interests and that of the SL micro economy are not in one line always ...
[13:10] JoseAlfredo Saenz: is* God
[13:11] Triss Gray: no, they *think* they are
[13:11] Triss Gray: but in fact, that "god" only exists by our mercy :-)
[13:11] JoseAlfredo Saenz: frankly, Triss, in practice they *are*
[13:11] Rin Tae: but the economy is what is keeping many people here .. nobody would spend so time creating things if there would be nooen buying them and all those people are here and a big part of them rent land .. either directly form LL or through landlords
[13:11] Smoke Wijaya: well, 21st century is finally a time it is somehow meaningfull to talk about a god, with cyberspace ;)
[13:12] JoseAlfredo Saenz: we couldn't be here talking right now if it weren't for them
[13:12] Triss Gray: rin: wouldn't say noone
[13:12] Triss Gray: I'm not much of a creator, but I have never ever sold anything I make, or tried to sell
[13:12] Smoke Wijaya: Hello Malaya, welcome :)
[13:12] Malaya Beverly: Hi
[13:12] Smoke Wijaya: Welcome back, Freemason
[13:13] Rin Tae: I have given away more stuff then I have sold, but there is a point in my opinion in having your stuff given to others so they can use it and have fun with it
[13:13] JoseAlfredo Saenz: Yes, Smoke, but what is more thrilling is that we can start right away talking about overthrowing Him >:)
[13:13] Smoke Wijaya: hehe
[13:13] Triss Gray: mm, yes if you look at it as an economy of trade
[13:14] Triss Gray: but even if noone could pass anything on to another people might like to create just for themselves
[13:14] Rin Tae: you can also look as the very selfish feeling of a creator who sees that his or her stuff is around and liked by other people
[13:14] Rin Tae: of course
[13:14] Rin Tae: but showing off what you can is a BIG drivign force
[13:14] Triss Gray: hehe, in my case it is the creator who wees his stuff is mocked and ridiculed by other peoiple , but ok :-)
[13:14] Triss Gray: sees*
[13:15] JoseAlfredo Saenz: That's true, Rin
[13:16] JoseAlfredo Saenz: and such insight, when applied also to RL turns out to be quite revealing
[13:16] Rin Tae: you don't have to go to RL .. jsut take a look at all those community sites like facebook or you tube
[13:16] Rin Tae: showing of is what makes them big
[13:17] Rin Tae: but thats another discussion
[13:17] JoseAlfredo Saenz: right
[13:18] Triss Gray: hehe, true to that, the whole social networking is just a gigantic crie for attention :-)
[13:18] Retterger Serpente: it seems most in here congregate at clubs or places with music, is this true?
[13:18] Smoke Wijaya: people want to be acknowledged...
[13:18] Smoke Wijaya: Retterger, clubs and music venues are numerous yes...
[13:19] Rin Tae: music .. you can hear some great music here, so it´s worth to visit such places sometimes
[13:19] Triss Gray: like every saturday at our club ;-)
[13:19] Smoke Wijaya: also live music a lot .. and more and more
[13:19] Rin Tae: and porn .... that attracts some kind of people
[13:19] Retterger Serpente: ic
[13:19] Triss Gray: what, you mean there is p0rn in sl? *shocked*
[13:19] Smoke Wijaya: Hello Timo, welcome :)
[13:19] Retterger Serpente: lol
[13:19] Timo Gufler: thanks :)
[13:19] Rin Tae: hi Timo
[13:19] JoseAlfredo Saenz: no way XDD
[13:20] Timo Gufler: hi all :)
[13:20] JoseAlfredo Saenz: there is more than porno, SL offers interactive, anonymous porno
[13:20] JoseAlfredo Saenz: that's quite a treat ;)
[13:21] Rin Tae: it´s strange .. but you also have discussion, Role Playing or education .. lot'S of things and really anybody can find something to do
[13:21] Triss Gray: well, historically in multimedia whatever formatoffered the most pr0n won :-)
[13:22] Smoke Wijaya: they just need to hurry up with touch .. and voila
[13:22] Triss Gray: well, there already are teledildonics I heard
[13:22] Smoke Wijaya: hehe, yes
[13:22] JoseAlfredo Saenz: Just because it's the easiest to understand and consume
[13:22] Triss Gray: but maybe let's return to the discussion before we venture to deeply :-d
[13:22] JoseAlfredo Saenz: you don't have to know any language (even your own) to watch porn *giggles*
[13:23] Rin Tae points at everybody: "You are now talkign about it because you all want it, admit it!" XD
[13:23] Smoke Wijaya: yes, I admit it, I want touch
[13:23] Triss Gray: nah, I like my pr0n 2d :-p
[13:23] JoseAlfredo Saenz: Come on, don't make this discussion degenerate, please
[13:23] Smoke Wijaya: and direct neural interaction
[13:23] Rin Tae: touch would be nice for makign sculpties
[13:24] Triss Gray: clay sculpties
[13:24] Smoke Wijaya: anyway, agreed...lets not drift away to much
[13:24] Triss Gray: well, I am up for a direct brain interface
[13:24] Triss Gray: just imagine the possibilities
[13:24] JoseAlfredo Saenz: though I must admit that direct neural interaction wouldn't be bad :)
[13:24] Retterger Serpente: eventually
[13:24] Rin Tae: direct link would be a bit scary
[13:24] Triss Gray: after all, already sincet he first scifi moview ever are we wating for it :-)
[13:25] Smoke Wijaya: tv was scary thing as well...
[13:25] JoseAlfredo Saenz: Everything in life is, Rin
[13:25] Triss Gray: and trains were very scary too
[13:25] Retterger Serpente: SL is probably like ping pong for atari
[13:25] Smoke Wijaya: hehe
[13:25] Retterger Serpente: just the beginning
[13:25] Rin Tae: you, your brain will implode when you go faster then 30 km/h
[13:25] Smoke Wijaya: yah, it is surely just the beginning..or one of the beginnings
[13:26] Triss Gray: otoh many things that have "come true" aren't that exciting now we actually have them :-)
[13:26] Rin Tae: anyways.. since we are drifitng off .. shuld we say the official part is closed and continue to talk about whatever crosses our minds?
[13:26] Triss Gray: you don't wanna know what crosses my mind now and then ;-)
[13:26] JoseAlfredo Saenz: They may be not that exciting, but we could hardly live now without them
[13:27] Smoke Wijaya: yes, indeed
[13:27] Smoke Wijaya: some people just state that we could easily do without all...
[13:27] Rin Tae: we could, but it will need some adjustment of society
[13:27] Smoke Wijaya: right
[13:27] Triss Gray: well, only the same amount of adjustement we went through when it became availalble
[13:28] Triss Gray: truth is we don't WANT to be without them mostly
[13:28] Triss Gray: who would give up comforts without having to
[13:28] Triss Gray: though I can't imagine having to live without being able to play music without having to hire an orchestra :-)
[13:29] Rin Tae: maybe more people would make music on their own then
[13:29] Triss Gray: yes, that's good if you have that skill
[13:29] Triss Gray: <-- talentless
[13:29] JoseAlfredo Saenz: Anyway, reassuming: LL has the power, which is probably a temporary state. Better for us that i't so, because SL (or virtual immersive realities in general) may well become someday one of those things that are not so that exciting, but become part of our reality
[13:29] Freemason Magic: is there an alternative to 3.2
[13:29] Triss Gray: sqrt 3.2? :-)
[13:30] Smoke Wijaya: yes Jose...
[13:30] Smoke Wijaya: but that is also the reason why we want to get this changed now...
[13:30] Smoke Wijaya: to set a basis
[13:30] JoseAlfredo Saenz: I mean, our real reality :)
[13:30] Smoke Wijaya: a start
[13:30] Smoke Wijaya: yes...
[13:30] Smoke Wijaya: I know...
[13:31] Rin Tae: or think about ways to change it ... but rather it´s a question of getting rid of it
[13:31] Rin Tae: 3.2 I mean
[13:31] Rin Tae: or 2.6
[13:31] Retterger Serpente: one of the main ways to keep in check an entity that depends on customers for its
[13:32] Retterger Serpente: power, is to have competition
[13:32] JoseAlfredo Saenz: we definitely need to get it change, and I think we should examine carefully any means we can find to achieve it
[13:32] Smoke Wijaya: Freemason, I think that the clause of for any reaosn or no reason should just be scrapped .. together with implementing an appealprocess
[13:32] JoseAlfredo Saenz: ...get it changed*
[13:32] Freemason Magic: ok
[13:33] Freemason Magic: im also into another SIM
[13:33] JoseAlfredo Saenz: I do believe LL will have to scrap it at last, but that's just wishful thinking from my side
[13:33] Freemason Magic: and is a lot worse over there
[13:33] Freemason Magic: at least you can login here
[13:33] Smoke Wijaya: what you mean Freemason? another grid?
[13:33] Smoke Wijaya: ah ok
[13:33] Freemason Magic: yes
[13:33] Smoke Wijaya: yes, we are not saying SL sucks
[13:33] Smoke Wijaya: :)
[13:33] Freemason Magic: they attract people with all kind
[13:33] JoseAlfredo Saenz: Probably an opensim, Freemason
[13:34] Triss Gray: well, it does ;-) but we still love it
[13:34] Freemason Magic: false promises
[13:34] Smoke Wijaya: or that it is not one of the platforms with the most freedoms already
[13:34] Freemason Magic: like more prims
[13:34] Freemason Magic: for region
[13:34] Freemason Magic: but you can never login
[13:34] Smoke Wijaya: but the thing with those freedoms is that this frustration between Ll and the userbase rises....
[13:34] Smoke Wijaya: those freedoms allowed, create the basis for demand for more rights...
[13:35] Rin Tae: now only more people should realise, that they can demand the rights and are able to get them
[13:35] JoseAlfredo Saenz: like disclosing the specs of SL protocols?
[13:35] Smoke Wijaya: and rights only come into existence because people demand and asert they have them
[13:35] JoseAlfredo Saenz: hehe
[13:35] Triss Gray: yes, people have to realise again they don't have to bend over and take whatever dictaions there are
[13:36] JoseAlfredo Saenz: I would be delighted to have a peek into their specs ;)
[13:36] Smoke Wijaya: I bet :)
[13:36] Triss Gray: "we"'ve grown too accustomed to DMCA, privacy invasion, tos's, unfair contracts, etc
[13:37] Smoke Wijaya: type "for any reason or no reason", like that, with scare qoutes, in Google....
[13:37] JoseAlfredo Saenz: In the USA?
[13:37] Triss Gray: hehe, scare quotes :-)
[13:37] Triss Gray: WE = humanity :-)
[13:37] Triss Gray: or at leas tthe part of humanity that is rich enough to have those
[13:37] Rin Tae: yes
[13:38] Rin Tae: that too
[13:38] JoseAlfredo Saenz: LOL, good point
[13:41] JoseAlfredo Saenz: I have to go, RL is calling ;) But I want to tell you I really enjoyed this discussion and will be looking forward for those to come ;-)
[13:41] Triss Gray: thx for joining us!
[13:42] Smoke Wijaya: alright Jose, was nice to meet you and have you here...see you later then :)
[13:42] JoseAlfredo Saenz: Enjoy, bye
[13:42] Retterger Serpente: yes, thnx for the discussion
[13:42] Retterger Serpente: do u hold these often?
[13:42] Smoke Wijaya: thank you :)
[13:42] Smoke Wijaya: every tuesday, same time, same place
[13:42] Triss Gray: discussion ever tues at 12 pm, membership meets sundays at 11pm, party saturdays at 10am
[13:42] Rin Tae: each week
[13:42] Retterger Serpente: 10 am SL time?
[13:42] Smoke Wijaya: all to plot the revolution :)
[13:42] Triss Gray: yes
[13:42] Smoke Wijaya: all SL time
[13:42] Retterger Serpente: which is my time :)
[13:43] Retterger Serpente: thnx, seeya again
[13:43] Smoke Wijaya: http://www.sldemocraticmovement.org/
[13:43] Smoke Wijaya: See you later Retterger
[13:43] Rin Tae: bye