SL Issues Discussion_30June09

[Tomorrow, a summary will follow - Smoke]

[12:06] Smoke Wijaya: notecards not loading with me either indeed
[12:07] Millennium Sands: I'm just reading the SLDM FAQ w/ Strategy and Goals.
[12:07] Smoke Wijaya: that's a long read :)
[12:07] Smoke Wijaya: (we tried to make it as short as possible .. hehe)
[12:08] Millennium Sands: Yes. But as long as the discussion here didn't start, it's the best thing I can do, I suppose. :)
[12:08] Smoke Wijaya: Hey Triss, good evening
[12:08] Cibo Xue: hi Triss
[12:08] Sour Wozniak: only problem i see with democracy.. 51% say bombs war and torture then 49% say peace love and humanity...nobody gives a crap about that 49%..
[12:08] Triss Gray: heya, greetings from subtropical belgium :-)
[12:08] Cibo Xue: and the discussion should start shortly I think
[12:09] Smoke Wijaya: Sour, democracy is not a system, is merely a tool. kind of. You can have many different forms of "democratic" organisaiton....from radical participatory, direct democracy...corporatist parliamentary 'democracy', central democratic one party system etc ...
[12:10] Sour Wozniak: mhmm
[12:10] Smoke Wijaya: ...but yes, minority interests are to be acknowledged
[12:10] Sour Wozniak: not in the US >.>
[12:10] Smoke Wijaya: Oh, right, I was not thinking about any particular system in existence right now :)
[12:10] Sour Wozniak: xP
[12:10] Sour Wozniak: this seems fun
[12:10] Sour Wozniak: getting together
[12:10] Sour Wozniak: :)
[12:11] Mimika Oh pokes Triss with a software patent
[12:11] Millennium Sands: Al democratic systems are work in progress. At least they should be.
[12:11] Sour Wozniak: oh god...
[12:11] Smoke Wijaya: And yeah, we might as well start, if we just did not do that...but mostly we wait a short while, since people are not that punctual on the Internet :)
[12:11] Sour Wozniak pokes mimika with ubuntu linux and GNU
[12:11] Sour Wozniak: and GPL
[12:11] Mimika Oh laughs
[12:11] Smoke Wijaya: hehe
[12:11] Triss Gray pokes Mimika with a penguin... a naughty penguin
[12:11] Mimika Oh: I like penguins!
[12:12] Sour Wozniak high fives triss
[12:12] Sour Wozniak: good job!
[12:12] Sour Wozniak: infect linux
[12:12] Sour Wozniak: spread the plauge
[12:12] Smoke Wijaya: Hey Gramsci, welcome
[12:12] Gramsci Greybeard: hi there
[12:12] Triss Gray returns high five and offers a frienly headbutt maori style ;-)
[12:12] Sour Wozniak: GO FOR IT >8V
[12:13] Sour Wozniak: i brought coffe and popcorn for everyone >..
[12:13] Triss Gray: hehe
[12:13] Millennium Sands: :)
[12:13] Triss Gray: I prefer something cold
[12:13] Triss Gray: icecold :-)
[12:13] Sour Wozniak: eat it >8V i
[12:13] Triss Gray: is also better for the penguins :-)
[12:13] Sour Wozniak: i also brought ice cold ron paul flavored soda
[12:13] Sour Wozniak: :D
[12:14] Smoke Wijaya: Well, maybe we should just kick it off... our discussions are always pretty free style and flow, so feel free to jump in. Todays topic though is organisation in SL, and specifically how to organise in opposition to LL (policy) and with goal to further user emancipation.
[12:14] Triss Gray has a feeling we were pretty much freestylin' already :-)
[12:14] Smoke Wijaya: Hello rc, welcome
[12:14] rc Absent: 0ola boa tarde a todos
[12:14] Sour Wozniak: how are we supposed to asemble against LL theyll just shut us down :D
[12:14] rc's translator: 0ola good afternoon to all
[12:15] Cibo Xue: we are .. and if you could, then I think the links to the action proposals form our website might be good as a start
[12:15] Smoke Wijaya: Sour, they surely have that ability yes...you truly think they would do such a thing en masse?
[12:15] Cibo Xue: so everybody can see what was discussed already and maybe build up on this
[12:15] Sour Wozniak: they did it when i was at the protest against open space pricing raises
[12:16] Sour Wozniak: a buttload of those ppl got banned >.>
[12:16] Millennium Sands: Since they made that Zira ghetto, I belive they would do ANYTHING!
[12:16] Smoke Wijaya: They banned accounts?
[12:16] Sour Wozniak: temporarily
[12:16] Smoke Wijaya: during those protests
[12:16] Cibo Xue: it depends on the mass .. and this is the critical point since to be heared, a mass of people need to be reached and made to make their voices heared
[12:16] Smoke Wijaya: oh...
[12:16] Smoke Wijaya: well, thats temporarily....in RL you can also get arrested.
[12:16] Triss Gray: well, if the protest's big enough, and they ban all protesters, they'll shut themselves down in a way
[12:16] Sour Wozniak: and if you get arrested for peacefull protest theres a problem ^^
[12:17] Smoke Wijaya: sure there is
[12:17] Smoke Wijaya: so you do not mean to say that we can get banned for opposition should entail not oppose, right?
[12:17] Millennium Sands: LL already shows a distubing tendency towards fashism.
[12:17] Cibo Xue: and the problem for LL is bad publicity .. news on the web spreads fast and they want to retain a somehow clean image at least
[12:17] Smoke Wijaya: that because we*
[12:17] Smoke Wijaya: man, that sentence is all wrong....let me try again...lol
[12:18] Triss Gray: it is a weird sentence :-)
[12:18] Smoke Wijaya: Sour, so you do not mean to say, that the possibility that we get suspended/banned for opposition should entail that we should not oppose?
[12:18] Mimika Oh is waiting for the link to topics
[12:18] Sour Wozniak: there should be a protocal for protests...
[12:18] Sour Wozniak: so nobody gets banned x3
[12:18] Triss Gray: the kind that makes everyone think umm, does he agree or not :-)
[12:19] Cibo Xue: brb
[12:19] Smoke Wijaya: Well, lets maybe first discuss the effects of those mass protests in changing the policy....
[12:19] Smoke Wijaya: I mean, all the big protests, through pjira and inworld, have not done a thing to change policies
[12:20] Mimika Oh: This is why I don't believe in symbolic protests.
[12:20] Millennium Sands: At the moment, it looks to me like LL doesn't give a damn about masses. They aim for a new consumer basis. The .edu.com folks.
[12:20] Smoke Wijaya: pretty true I think Millennium
[12:21] rc Absent: pessoal vo indo te mais
[12:21] rc's translator: vo te more staff going
[12:21] Smoke Wijaya: and not just academic and corporate interests...but also aiming and relying on a constant influx of new users that are not pissed off yet
[12:21] Millennium Sands: Before LL will listen to the masses, they need to realize they won't survive without those masses.
[12:21] Smoke Wijaya nods
[12:22] Smoke Wijaya: but as said, the constant influx of new users kind of breaks up the idea of "the masses" as a block...
[12:22] Millennium Sands: In short: Their current plans have to fail. ;)
[12:22] Smoke Wijaya nods
[12:22] Mimika Oh: Content creators are not "masses" in that sense.
[12:22] Smoke Wijaya: Millennium, we were thinking along those lines when we initiated the Don't Snitch and Don't Comply initiatives
[12:22] Mimika Oh: They stay longer and they matter more.
[12:23] Smoke Wijaya: to subvert the implementation of in this case adult content policy through massive disobedience
[12:23] Mimika Oh: But it's the influx's money that flows to LL via the content creators.
[12:23] Smoke Wijaya: which does not have to be imposed, centrally controlled & executed etc
[12:23] Mimika Oh: I think the adult content policy is a really bad target to choose.
[12:23] Smoke Wijaya: Mimika, not just through the content creators though....I mean, that money comes from someone...
[12:24] Smoke Wijaya: Why Mimika?
[12:24] Mimika Oh: The money comes from outside SL.
[12:24] Mimika Oh: Why the adult content policy? Because it's probably a good thing, and most people will say so.
[12:24] Smoke Wijaya: I mean, we dont just target the Adult content policy...
[12:25] Mimika Oh: Certainly most people I speak to say that.
[12:25] Mimika Oh: When you talk to them about _how_ it was done, they don't care.
[12:25] Millennium Sands: Well, you are the first one I meet who thinks it's a good thing, Mimika. :D
[12:25] Smoke Wijaya: oh, you think it is a good thing...the whole thing, or merely having audlt content seperated and ability to filter?
[12:25] Mimika Oh: But it's the how that we care about.
[12:25] Mimika Oh: It depends what you mean buy "it" Millennium.
[12:25] Smoke Wijaya: I mean, you agree with the age verification through Aristotle? you agree with the compulsory censoring of search and the viewer?
[12:25] Mimika Oh: Well let me try to be brief about it...
[12:26] Cibo Xue: I am sorry .. back now and I post the promised links: http://www.sldemocraticmovement.org/forum/proposal_attack_abuse_report_s... http://www.sldemocraticmovement.org/forum/proposal_theatrical_flash_mobs...
[12:26] Mimika Oh: It's probably necessary to separate adult content for Linden Labs to expand, and maybe to survive, because I expect most investors and consumers will want it filtered.
[12:26] Smoke Wijaya: having the possibility to filter is something different then imposing this on everyone...
[12:26] Mimika Oh: Right Smoke.
[12:26] Millennium Sands: There always was a way to exclude adult content in search.
[12:26] Mimika Oh: But you will haev trouble getting support.
[12:26] Sour Wozniak: why are we attacking the ar system?
[12:27] Cibo Xue: sorry http://www.sldemocraticmovement.org/forum/proposal_attack_abuse_report_s...
[12:27] Mimika Oh: Almost everything about the WAY it has been done is bad and wrong.
[12:27] Smoke Wijaya: while there has not been asked for it through the userbase, merely hrough some minorty interests as academic, corporate and govermental institutions.
[12:27] Cibo Xue: http://www.sldemocraticmovement.org/forum/proposal_theatrical_flash_mobs...
[12:27] Smoke Wijaya: asked for adult content filtering
[12:27] Cibo Xue: thats the second one
[12:27] Mimika Oh: In particular Linden Labs have not revealed their goals and motivation.
[12:27] Mimika Oh: But I think the "masses" will not see the difference.
[12:28] Mimika Oh: I've had plenty of encounters where people say "but it's good to protect children" and that's that.
[12:28] Cibo Xue: I think, it was odne to get a 'good' image towards corporate partners .. maybe even ones liek Disney
[12:28] Mimika Oh: End of discussion.
[12:28] Smoke Wijaya: right Mimika, and I hope you told these people that SL is not for kids?
[12:28] Millennium Sands: The majority of the masses is simply uninformed. They don't even read the blog.
[12:28] Smoke Wijaya: and that if kids wnat to see extreme porn, they can do so on the web? without any verification needed?
[12:28] Mimika Oh: Well I can't too much risk antagonising my customers, but I try to gently enlighten them a little.
[12:29] Smoke Wijaya: Ok, I understand that
[12:29] Cibo Xue: I really miss the time where blog posts have been on the log in screen
[12:29] Smoke Wijaya: I mean, I truly think that is up to the corporation, NGO, parents to install a filtering system on the pc....not ask to impose one on all users.
[12:29] Mimika Oh: There is huge moral panic about sex and children. That panic prevents rational thought. That's why it's a difficult target for popular support.
[12:29] Mimika Oh: That's my summary.
[12:29] Smoke Wijaya: ok
[12:30] Smoke Wijaya: I understand that yes.
[12:30] sophia Placebo is Offline
[12:30] Smoke Wijaya: and yes, I guess that is true
[12:30] Millennium Sands: You have a point there.
[12:31] Millennium Sands: I only scratched the topic because it got me interested in SL politics for the first time.
[12:31] Smoke Wijaya: We also saw that many people in groups like "I am adult content"( created to oppose the policy) were pretty soon dispersing noetcards on how to age verify and how to move to adult continent etc
[12:31] Mimika Oh: It's why I'm here too Millennium.
[12:32] Mimika Oh: "I am adult content" was not created to oppose the policy.
[12:32] Mimika Oh: I had a long discussion with the creator.
[12:32] Cibo Xue: yes.. the notices that went out in such groups have been in both in support and in opposition to the policy
[12:32] Smoke Wijaya: Ok Mimika....
[12:32] Mimika Oh: The group charter now clearly says "raise awareness". It's a transition support group now.
[12:33] Smoke Wijaya: ok
[12:33] Mimika Oh: "Revoling Adults" is more activist.
[12:33] Smoke Wijaya: lame
[12:33] Smoke Wijaya: yes, they are
[12:33] Smoke Wijaya: Wb Sour
[12:33] Cibo Xue: wb
[12:33] Millennium Sands: Haha.. do you have a notecard like that? I tried to verify y age, but it was impossible. The fact that my account is supported by a credit card didn't help too so far.
[12:33] Smoke Wijaya: hold on Millennium
[12:33] Mimika Oh: Millennium, I am PayPal verified but it took some days.
[12:33] Smoke Wijaya: will get you some info, but dont use your real ID
[12:33] Cibo Xue: you don'T need to age verify if you have payment info on file
[12:34] Millennium Sands: That's what YOU say, Cibo.
[12:34] Smoke Wijaya: http://www.slapt.me/wiki/index.php/SL_Verification_(Age_%26_Payment)_-_Issues_and_Information
[12:34] Cibo Xue: thats what the lindens have repeated over an over again too
[12:34] Mimika Oh: I have successfully age verified several accounts by linking them to PayPal and nothing more.
[12:34] Millennium Sands: I already met parcels that didn't let me in, and told me that I have to verify my age first.
[12:34] Smoke Wijaya: Just use false info, there are some examples on that page Millennium
[12:34] Mimika Oh: But there was a week delay.
[12:34] Smoke Wijaya: People have verified with mickey mouse, so...
[12:35] Cibo Xue: actually I consider the fact, that the LLs accept this as a verification method as proof, that they themsleves know, that the system of aristotle is a joke
[12:35] Smoke Wijaya: ...you see, it is all a freaking PR joke...
[12:35] Smoke Wijaya: yes Cibo
[12:35] Mimika Oh: Yes Smoke, this is where democracy is a problem for LL.
[12:35] Mimika Oh: This is a kind of PR exercise, to make SL acceptable to investors, I think. Lindens won't admit that.
[12:36] Mimika Oh: And they won't like us trying to make them tell the truth.
[12:36] Smoke Wijaya: I do not see how a more collaborative structure that acknowledges and accomodates the ideas and wishes of Sl userbase would be detrimental to their business...
[12:36] Millennium Sands: They should start to take us for grown up people who have the ability to think. ;)
[12:36] Cibo Xue: democracy will always be a problem for LL .. I think, that a trully democratic place can only emerge, when the virtual worlds are taken out of the hands of such corprotaion and they turn itno providers of services and stp runnign the worlds on thier servers
[12:36] Smoke Wijaya: Hello Emliy, welcome
[12:36] Emily Kaestner: arro
[12:37] Mimika Oh: Hello Emily.
[12:37] Emily Kaestner: :3
[12:37] Cibo Xue: I think it would be gratly beneficial to their buisness if they allow for more cooperation and have a free and truthfully comunication with their users
[12:37] Mimika Oh: I think that would be a good thing Cibo.
[12:37] Smoke Wijaya: and Mimika, I think the idividual users, not corporations and NGO's etc, are the main investors....
[12:38] Cibo Xue: in SL for sure ... through theri time, effort and also money, because all those micr payments sum up to a large numbers
[12:38] Mimika Oh: Smoke, that's probably true. Are there figures? And what are LL hoping for? But even so, the media has usually mentioned sex when mentioning SL, and that must be a problem for LL even if it is individuals.
[12:39] Smoke Wijaya: no figures really...and we dont know the hopes...
[12:39] Millennium Sands: Actually, I don't see that they can make really BIG money with companys or similar corporations. They don't do much more tha other folks: They buy sims.
[12:39] Smoke Wijaya: and yes, I see that 'problem" for them there.
[12:39] Cibo Xue purrs down at the parrot feelign her cat instincts rise ^^
[12:39] Mimika Oh: What is a business model for LL if they open source the server?
[12:39] Emily Kaestner: :(
[12:39] Smoke Wijaya: you cannot eat Emily
[12:39] Emily Kaestner: im too cute to eat
[12:40] Cibo Xue purrs some more
[12:40] Emily Kaestner: im a cockatiel!
[12:40] Sour Wozniak: omg cute!
[12:40] Emily Kaestner: :3
[12:40] Smoke Wijaya: :)
[12:40] Sour Wozniak: :3
[12:40] Sour Wozniak: this
[12:40] Sour Wozniak: is my new best friend
[12:40] Emily Kaestner: hehehe
[12:40] Mimika Oh laughs
[12:40] Cibo Xue: hehe
[12:41] Smoke Wijaya: Mimika, I think that business model (imo) would then have to be LL as cooperative, where the users are the owners, next to intial investors and LL working staff.
[12:41] Mimika Oh: Attacking the AR system is probably RL illegal.
[12:41] Sour Wozniak: nobody here is rezed
[12:42] Sour Wozniak: just emily
[12:42] Smoke Wijaya: and with attacking, we mean mass abuse reporting with protest text
[12:42] Smoke Wijaya: on a specific time
[12:42] Emily Kaestner: ;o
[12:42] Mimika Oh: That is illegal in some places.
[12:42] Smoke Wijaya: like a DOS, but with a message
[12:42] Smoke Wijaya: sure
[12:42] Emily Kaestner: if youre on a laptop make sure your battery settings is on high performance
[12:42] Sour Wozniak: wow what a wonderful idea to get us all banned :D
[12:42] Sour Wozniak: it would be funny if we reported Phill linden...
[12:42] Smoke Wijaya: You guys truly think they will ban people en masse?
[12:42] Mimika Oh: DOS with a message or not is illegal in many countries. It is even "terrorism" is some.
[12:42] Sour Wozniak: all at once..
[12:42] Sour Wozniak: yup i sure do
[12:42] Sour Wozniak: theyve done it before
[12:43] Smoke Wijaya: Ok, don't focus on that one idea please then...I mean, it was just one proposal.
[12:43] Cibo Xue: so anyways .. the point with the servers I think is also one where LL will have to some tme, because there is a limit in physical space to put up servers. Someday, the hall will simply become to expensive
[12:43] Sour Wozniak: theyve banned everybody in groups that protest
[12:43] Millennium Sands: I think we should avoid anything that could be taken as griefing.
[12:43] Sour Wozniak: well that means avoid all protest...
[12:43] Mimika Oh: I'm just looking through the links and raising the topics.
[12:43] Smoke Wijaya: yeah is cool
[12:43] Smoke Wijaya: Hello Marcel
[12:43] Smoke Wijaya: welcome
[12:43] Marcel Rydell: hello
[12:43] Sour Wozniak: D:
[12:43] Sour Wozniak: emily... im scared theres a pink man whos going to eat me D:
[12:43] Millennium Sands: Educating, informing people, is a more peaceful and constructive strategy.
[12:44] Smoke Wijaya: and I am just trying to be as sincere and truthful as possible Mimika
[12:44] Cibo Xue: those have been the proposals and I still beleive that the AR 'attack' thing is good to raise attention if done on mass with a text that is clearly marked as a protest towards some certain point
[12:44] Mimika Oh: How awful Smoke, you will never be a politician. Unless you were lying about being sincere then.
[12:44] Smoke Wijaya: Millennium, that goes with it...or rather, would have been done in advance of such an action
[12:44] Mimika Oh laughs
[12:45] Smoke Wijaya: Mimika, I indeed will never be a professional politician and take part in corporatist parliamentary "democracy" as lackey of state and capital. ( My view, not of slDM)
[12:45] Millennium Sands: But I have my own strategy to blast LL current plans concerning the edu.com folks. I don't go to their places.
[12:45] Sour Wozniak: D:
[12:45] Sour Wozniak: emily.. you have fleas
[12:45] Emily Kaestner: i do? :(
[12:46] Sour Wozniak: dont touch me... im purebread foxness
[12:46] Sour Wozniak: jk :P
[12:46] Sour Wozniak: no you odnnnt
[12:46] Sour Wozniak: your fluffy :D
[12:46] Sour Wozniak: *hugs*
[12:46] Smoke Wijaya: ok, how can we inform/educate people? How do we get message viral?
[12:46] Triss Gray: you'll never be a politician sounds like a compliment actually :-p
[12:46] Emily Kaestner: :3
[12:46] Smoke Wijaya: Yeah Triss :)
[12:46] Mimika Oh: I thought so Triss.
[12:47] Millennium Sands: By poster, that give a short message, and a longer one (notecard) when you touch it.
[12:47] Smoke Wijaya: We have dispersed objects and notecards inworld
[12:47] Smoke Wijaya: right
[12:47] Marcel spanked Marcel's ass
[12:47] Smoke Wijaya: but for that you have to have venues to which it gets shared
[12:47] Mimika Oh: On Sunday I suggested a viral game that might gain recruits.
[12:47] Smoke Wijaya: Hello Fabienne, welcome
[12:47] Millennium Sands: Nothing that spams with a notecard giver that runs by itself.
[12:48] Cibo Xue: a lot of them, but it is hard, since it is not really possible in SL to put posters up on walls .. either rezzin is not allowed or it gets autoreturned
[12:48] Smoke Wijaya: yeah, tagging places is hard, especially with the paranoia around for griefers etc
[12:48] Millennium Sands: That's true. Only activists with land can help us .
[12:48] Cibo Xue: games are good .. those can gain attention
[12:48] Triss Gray: mm, in theory you could make objects rerez themselves just before the return limit
[12:48] Smoke Wijaya: I am trying to remember the game...
[12:48] Mimika Oh: I think we must be careful what we mean about "viral". I mean "memetic" not things that spam people.
[12:48] Smoke Wijaya: I am sorry Mimika
[12:49] Sour Wozniak: emily ur totaly in my picks now A:D
[12:49] Sour Wozniak: :D
[12:49] Smoke Wijaya: I did not read back the meeting log of sunday yet
[12:49] Triss Gray: but I'm not sure I'd be very happy to find such a thing on my property :-)
[12:49] Emily Kaestner: omg lemme seee
[12:49] Cibo Xue: and activist land is usually visited by other activists .. so reachign the masses stays difficult
[12:49] Mimika Oh: Smoke, I didn't have a game proposal, but I propose thinking about a game.
[12:49] Smoke Wijaya: Mimika, yes, I mean the same...and I think that with viral most people think about memetic
[12:49] Mimika Oh: In other words, something enjoyable that people will give to each other willingly.
[12:49] Smoke Wijaya: ah right
[12:49] Smoke Wijaya: yes, something fun....
[12:49] Millennium Sands: Good idea, Mimika. :)
[12:49] Smoke Wijaya: I am bad at that
[12:49] Mimika Oh: That is how "viral" marketing works. Funny videos etc.
[12:50] Millennium Sands: In other words: We need a PR professional! :D
[12:50] Mimika Oh: So, Bloodlines is a viral pyramid scheme I do not want to copy, but it is successful.
[12:50] Smoke Wijaya: Well, I still have enough belief in our members Millennium
[12:50] Smoke Wijaya: I mean...we surely can learn this, right?
[12:50] Mimika Oh: I can tell you a short story about an activist friend...
[12:50] Millennium Sands: I was only joking :)
[12:51] Smoke Wijaya: you see, missing jokes :P
[12:51] Triss Gray: as opposed to something real bad but that gives joy spreading it? :-)
[12:51] Cibo Xue: but we do need a good PR person
[12:51] Cibo Xue: thats is true
[12:51] Mimika Oh: He set up a really good web site with high impact to gather people to work on climate change problems. Within a month he had thousands of people signed up.
[12:51] Mimika Oh: But then...
[12:51] Mimika Oh: Nothing. It fell apart.
[12:51] Mimika Oh: He had no follow-up plan. He thought if people just "got together" it would work.
[12:52] Mimika Oh: So, let's suppose we make a really good "thing" and get loads of recruits. Then what?
[12:52] Smoke Wijaya: Right, but that was a game, and a game without purpose does not work...
[12:52] Smoke Wijaya: ...if people spread stuff with the views of us...they have a goal, while not in a game..
[12:53] Millennium Sands: THat points out that we need a long term strategy. Spreading the word is only a stage on a voyage. We need a plan that depicts the voyage from start to end.
[12:53] Mimika Oh: I don't believe spreading goals and raising awareness achieves much. All the people signed up had a very clear idea. Then nothing was organised to do anything.
[12:53] Smoke Wijaya: Right Millennium, although I think we should take care not to want to picture a utopia...
[12:53] Mimika Oh: A strategy AND tactics AND organisation AND leadership.
[12:54] Millennium Sands nods at Smoke and Mimika
[12:54] Sour Wozniak throws popcorn at mimika "BOOOOO do a trick!!!"
[12:54] Sour Wozniak: jk XD
[12:54] Triss Gray nods at the painting on the wall
[12:54] Mimika Oh laughs
[12:54] Mimika Oh: Watch!
[12:54] Cibo Xue: the long term plan .. at least one was .. to allow people to organise themselves. You can say, to push them into the right direction, so they got aware of the possibility and create their own communites and orgenise between themselves. Because we can'T do it for them
[12:55] Mimika Oh faints
[12:55] Sour Wozniak: oh ye a
[12:55] Smoke Wijaya: aww
[12:55] Sour Wozniak: whell i can do this
[12:55] Sour Wozniak waves his paws over emily
[12:55] Sour Wozniak: see!
[12:55] Sour Wozniak: i made her cheecks orange!'
[12:55] Sour Wozniak: cheeks*
[12:55] Smoke Wijaya: brb
[12:56] Triss Gray: mm, so plan A is gather crowd by mimika doing tricks?
[12:56] Sour Wozniak: yes
[12:56] Sour Wozniak: then
[12:56] Mimika Oh: Cibo, I think you're partly right but that some sort of federation might be helpful. Also, we have to keep the energy going in a system. All the shopping and, um, other activites tend to distract people!
[12:56] Mimika Oh laughs
[12:56] Sour Wozniak: i'll turn emilys cheeks red
[12:57] Sour Wozniak: then theyl come rushing in
[12:57] Cibo Xue: doing tricks can be done on the artistic flashmob protest
[12:57] Mimika Oh: I can juggle and get some people round then say "Can I interest you in a manifesto?" and we'll see what happens.
[12:57] Cibo Xue: after all .. putting up small plays or some sort of animations might draw soem attention .. if it is funny and itnersting
[12:57] Sour Wozniak: we can offer free foot rubs
[12:57] Sour Wozniak: :D
[12:58] Millennium Sands: I don't believe it's enough to show a direction to a mass of people and hope they will do the rest by themselves. Every successful movement need at least one personality that integrates all of the.
[12:58] Cibo Xue: I know .. I don'T expect the masses to isntantly catch on the idea of organisation
[12:58] Mimika Oh: That's the leadership I was talking about Millennium.
[12:58] Smoke Wijaya: back
[12:58] Cibo Xue: it would require to have some people who show interst and that they push some over people and so on and so on
[12:59] Cibo Xue: very very long term plans you can say ^^
[12:59] Triss Gray: I don't think people 'll agree to a "federation" or anything alike... also, the idea was to empower the people, not to copy some rl political model
[12:59] Millennium Sands: A Che, Lenin, Mao..... well, never mind the program behind them, just the general idea.
[12:59] Cibo Xue: eek.. all three left a rather bloody path behind them too
[12:59] Millennium Sands: A charismatic leader. :)
[12:59] Mimika Oh: Empowering individuals doesn't achieve anything when they act individually.
[12:59] Smoke Wijaya: Well, we surely do not want to be a political party
[13:00] Millennium Sands: You're right, Cibo.
[13:00] Millennium Sands: That's right too.
[13:00] Triss Gray: I do want to party :-p
[13:00] Smoke Wijaya: but yes, when they act individually, wihtout anything to unite on, they wont achieve much maybe...but when they organise with clear intent, that very fact already changed a lot.
[13:00] Mimika Oh: I recently listened to a story about someone dedicated to the anarchist movement, trying to avoid "organisation" because he thought that you just needed to give people power and they'd sort it out.
[13:00] Millennium Sands: But actually, no charismatic leader is worth a dam without people who do the homeworks, so to say.
[13:01] Smoke Wijaya: but yes, federalising for coordination is of course needed
[13:01] Smoke Wijaya: and that does not even have to happen in one group, or within a hierarchical way.
[13:01] Triss Gray: I don't think the idea is to avoid organization as such
[13:01] Triss Gray: but organization doesn't have to mean central guidance
[13:02] Millennium Sands: Without organization, you have chaos.
[13:02] Mimika Oh: What does it mean then Triss?
[13:02] Smoke Wijaya: Mimika, that was then some indivudalistic anarchist....and not one of the social anarchist side...
[13:02] Triss Gray: well, for starters, just give groups the means to govern themselves the way they want to.
[13:02] Cibo Xue: that is the problem of anarchy .. in order to work, it needs to be orgenised ^^ .. of course it does not contradict itself as much as many people think, but anarchy is a utopian system for the most part
[13:02] Mimika Oh: Triss, that's what "federation" means I believe. Well that's what I mean by it.
[13:03] Smoke Wijaya: All the anarchist I work with see organisation in local participatoryt democratic and horizontal structures as neccessity...
[13:03] Triss Gray: I was thinking federation more in a government kinda style, but I see you mean the "idea" federation, not the "body" federation
[13:03] Mimika Oh: Oh I suppose "federal" has a special meaning in the USA. Are you from the USA?
[13:03] Millennium Sands: I'm new here. Did anybody bring up the idea of getting the support of blogs and their folks, like the Second Life Herald?
[13:03] Triss Gray: seen to much star trek and united federation of planets probably :-)
[13:04] Smoke Wijaya: <-- Netherlands
[13:04] Mimika Oh laughs
[13:04] Sour Wozniak: <-- Connecticut
[13:04] Triss Gray: belgium
[13:04] Triss Gray: federal also does have a meaning here
[13:04] Triss Gray: :-)
[13:04] Mimika Oh: Star Trek has very bizarre politics! But let's not discuss it now.
[13:04] Cibo Xue: yes.. we menaged to place some press releases and the goals/FAQ on some blogs too at times
[13:04] Smoke Wijaya: millennium, not the support of them as such, but we did send out several pressreleases...and not many published those..and noone published the last one about the Don't Snitch campaign
[13:05] Cibo Xue: yes.. not even the SL herald
[13:05] Sour Wozniak: souhh
[13:05] Sour Wozniak: i got an idea...
[13:05] Sour Wozniak: if were not supposed to AR ppl
[13:05] Millennium Sands: Ok. Pressreleases are good one shots, but getting the consistent support of those bloggers would be much better in my opinion.
[13:05] Sour Wozniak: why not have people available for anti griefer support and such
[13:06] Smoke Wijaya: Because p[eople can solve problems of griefing themselves Sour
[13:06] Sour Wozniak: >.>
[13:06] Cibo Xue: we are not enough people to offer such a thing too
[13:06] Smoke Wijaya: I am not going to run around in tights and pretend to be superman
[13:06] Mimika Oh: We are still very focussed on marketing in this discussion.
[13:06] Sour Wozniak: i dont see how not reporting stupid people is democratic..
[13:06] Mimika Oh: Smoke, I can find someone to do that. I met a superman.
[13:06] Triss Gray: btw: about pressreleases: http://dwellonit.taterunino.net/2009/06/22/top-ten-reasons-why-your-medi...
[13:06] Cibo Xue will soooooo make Smoke get a super smoke outfit ^^
[13:06] Millennium Sands: Concerning a first step: Do we have a secretary who could send reports of our meetings and actions to those bloggers regularly?
[13:07] Smoke Wijaya: I know that there are several supermans, and one is head of the Justice League..that polices the grid for griefers
[13:07] Smoke Wijaya: fools
[13:07] Triss Gray: smoke in tights, now there's a sight :-)
[13:07] Triss Gray: smoke: how much do you pay not to tell aeris about that idea? :-)
[13:07] Mimika Oh: I visited the Green Lantern exhibit at Burning Life and I was scared by the fascist imagery and ideology.
[13:07] Cibo Xue: I know, that some of those superman groups helped a lot during the earth week events to keep griefers out
[13:08] Smoke Wijaya: Sour, not reporting stupid people....I am not sure what you mean with stupid here, but the not reporting was part of a total program to subvert the implemtation of the adult content policy, which starts with not reporting adult content, since LL depends on reporting to find it.
[13:08] Smoke Wijaya: Yeah Mimika
[13:09] Smoke Wijaya: lol Triss
[13:09] Smoke Wijaya: Millennium, we could have reports of meetings/summeries on our website ( which we have done not enough) and point them to that.....?
[13:09] Smoke Wijaya: we could, and we should
[13:10] Smoke Wijaya: We do not have a secretary as such
[13:10] Triss Gray: I do try to make summaries of real meetings, but summarizing a discussion such as this one is quite a task
[13:10] Millennium Sands: That's not enough. The more blogs have reports, the more people get interested and aware.
[13:10] Smoke Wijaya: I will try to summarize this discussion tomorrow evening if you are ok with it?
[13:10] Mimika Oh: This isn't a "real" meeting?
[13:10] Smoke Wijaya: sure Millenium, they can take it from there
[13:11] Smoke Wijaya: Mimika, this is our SL Issues Discussion, which is not necesarily for slDM organisation, but surely is possible to be used for that. On sundays, we have our regular membership meetings
[13:11] Triss Gray: there is some distinction between a discussion event such as thi and a meeting
[13:12] Smoke Wijaya: We do often work out ideas in these discussions though
[13:12] Mimika Oh scratches her head
[13:12] Smoke Wijaya: anyways, yes, surely you can see this as a real meeting.
[13:12] Cibo Xue: yes.. actually those discussions serve as the main area to get and dicuss ideas and proposals
[13:12] Smoke Wijaya: Uhmm, what is not cl;ear Mimika?
[13:12] Cibo Xue: and this meeting is as real as any other
[13:13] Triss Gray: well anyway, from a secretary point of view the discussions are much more chaotic and it is more difficult to keep track of for takingn otes
[13:13] Mimika Oh: I suppose I want to know what the difference in results is.
[13:13] Triss Gray: whereas the "meeting" has a bit more structure to it
[13:13] Mimika Oh: Either I failed to detect a structure on Sunday or I totally hijacked the whole thing and steamrollered everyone.
[13:13] Mimika Oh: In which case, sorry!
[13:14] Smoke Wijaya: not really a structure either...
[13:14] Smoke Wijaya: ..but we could just as easily start work with agenda
[13:14] Smoke Wijaya: for sundays meetings
[13:14] Mimika Oh: Smoke, isn't that an organisation point and only suitable for SUnday's meeting?
[13:14] Mimika Oh winks
[13:15] Cibo Xue: no.. don'T worry. The missing structure happened due to the fact, that the point about the tuseday discussion topic was decided on rather fast and no party planned for next week .. so we could jsut fallow up on the discussion that developed then
[13:15] Smoke Wijaya: It just evolved like this....we are a group that wants to have this horizontal decision making, so we needed regular membership meetings.....we also wanted to discuss things that did not get discussed in SL, so we also wnated a publicly open regular discussion, which we called SL Issues Discussion, which si this, on tuesdays. But the discussions have indeed also served as open assemblies of sorts, where plans and decisioons were made.
[13:15] Triss Gray: mimika: we usually have a loose structure of meeting points that tend to return
[13:15] Mimika Oh: Well, I propose a land use reduction campaign.
[13:15] Mimika Oh: How do I do that?
[13:16] Triss Gray: Mimika: wait till full moon and bring a sheep :-p
[13:16] Mimika Oh: Ah! Black or white?
[13:16] Triss Gray: mm, depends on the kind of topic :-)
[13:16] Triss Gray: I guess to bring down sl economy you'd go for a black sheep
[13:16] Smoke Wijaya: Nah, I wish proposals like that would just be posted on the forum, on our website...
[13:16] Smoke Wijaya: and send out in a notice maybe...
[13:17] Mimika Oh: OK, so I should write it clearly on the forum.
[13:17] Smoke Wijaya: and we take it to the next meeting
[13:17] Millennium Sands: brb
[13:17] Smoke Wijaya: I think that would be good Mimika, so we also can start discussion right away...
[13:17] Cibo Xue: yes
[13:17] Smoke Wijaya: and not necesarily need physical presence together in SL for it
[13:17] Triss Gray: another way is work out what you want to do a bit, and just come to the meeting and "present" your topic
[13:17] Smoke Wijaya: We also have twitter account....dont know if any of you is on twitter?
[13:17] Triss Gray: but some before-warning on the site is handy
[13:18] Triss Gray: brb - drink & food
[13:18] Smoke Wijaya: Ok, people would agree if I wil try to make summary of this discussion tomorrow evening? like in 24 hours?
[13:18] Mimika Oh: Well I can "present" it a bit, then write it up, after a moment!
[13:19] Cibo Xue: sure
[13:19] Millennium Sands: back
[13:19] Smoke Wijaya: Wb
[13:19] Cibo Xue: wb
[13:19] Millennium Sands: checking history....
[13:19] Smoke Wijaya: Well, I need to go soon...
[13:20] Millennium Sands: Well, I got a first idea, and will join the group for a start. :)
[13:20] Smoke Wijaya: if people agree with me making a summary, I will place it on the website tomorrow evening...and we can continue discussion and further crystalize
[13:20] Smoke Wijaya: the ideas
[13:21] Smoke Wijaya: Nice Millennium :)
[13:21] Cibo Xue: of course, Smoke .. if you feel liek summerizing the discussion, then it would be good, but I would still place the whole thing as well .. in case things get missing that people feels like importatn for the later discussion
[13:21] Mimika Oh: OK so my idea is simple. LL revenue comes from tier, and now from XStreetSL. Is that right?
[13:21] Smoke Wijaya: yes
[13:21] Cibo Xue: it is right
[13:21] Millennium Sands: I think there was a join poster right at the entrence....
[13:22] Mimika Oh: So, a "protest" which will have a real affect on LL's bottom line is to encourage people to reduce land usage AND tell LL why they are doin git.
[13:22] Mimika Oh: And offer to increase it again when LL changes it's policy-making process.
[13:22] Millennium Sands: I was faster... :)
[13:22] Smoke Wijaya: :)
[13:23] Mimika Oh: Since everyone wants to have plenty of land this would take quite some organisation and mutual support.
[13:23] Cibo Xue: this might work .. even when I think, that many people will not really fallow up on this idea .. I think many people like the amount of prims they put into their builds
[13:23] Mimika Oh: Yes, everyone likes prims.
[13:23] Mimika Oh: But most people use more than they need.
[13:23] Smoke Wijaya: Mimika, what you mean with "offer to increase it again"?
[13:23] Sour Wozniak: i hate to interupt but im confused as to how were going about the mass ar protest
[13:23] Mimika Oh: Perhaps we can support them in prim reduction too and making things more efficient.
[13:24] Mimika Oh: I mean, Smoke, that LL should have a stick of land reduction and a carrot of land increase.
[13:24] Smoke Wijaya: Sour, we are not going to do that [better, we did not decide yet that we will. The proposal is still there]..that was still just a proposal
[13:24] Millennium Sands: You should probably change the setting for group accounting....
[13:24] Sour Wozniak: seems fun to me :P
[13:24] Mimika Oh: We don't want to permanently damage LL.
[13:24] Triss Gray: back - with supplies :-)
[13:24] Mimika Oh: But we need their attention and co-operation and I believe, personally, that revenue is the only way to get it.
[13:24] Mimika Oh: No amount of symbolic protest will do.
[13:25] Smoke Wijaya: Oh Mimika, yuo mean, the people that decrease their tier and tell why they do so to LL, should also accompany that with offer to increase wehn Ll changes stance
[13:25] Mimika Oh: Yes.
[13:25] Mimika Oh: Yes, Smoke, exactly.
[13:25] Triss Gray: mm, that's bribe actually :-)
[13:25] Mimika Oh: Carrot and stick, as I say!
[13:25] Cibo Xue: even when they jsut tell why they reduce .. it already carries the idea of increase again once the reason for the action passed
[13:26] Mimika Oh: Yes Cibo, but best to be explicit I think.
[13:26] Triss Gray prefers cookies and stick
[13:26] Cibo Xue: of course
[13:26] Mimika Oh: Eels and stick for me! Except without the stick.
[13:26] Smoke Wijaya: right, but you also do not want to exclude from such a reduction the people that simply 'vote with their feet"
[13:26] Smoke Wijaya: they also give a message you know...
[13:27] Mimika Oh: Smoke, you mean people who sold up entirely or left SL?
[13:27] Triss Gray: Is the user retention still as bad as it was?
[13:27] Smoke Wijaya: oh wait, I am not thinking clear, they wont reduce, they simply quit
[13:27] Smoke Wijaya: never mind :)
[13:27] Triss Gray: because then the "leavers" will not be nticed amidst the flurry of "normal abandoners" probably
[13:27] Cibo Xue: I think it is .. the entry areas have not really changed, so the neebs still only got to see the ugly side of SL
[13:27] Mimika Oh: It's hard for us to get the support of people leaving SL.
[13:28] Smoke Wijaya: well, but maybe not of people thinking about leaving SL
[13:28] Mimika Oh: Once they lost committment to a future in SL there is no reason for them to do anything.
[13:28] Smoke Wijaya: also true...
[13:28] Cibo Xue: we should not look for support of those who leave SL other then askign them to write up a notecard about why they did it and if it is LL related, we can ask if we can sue them
[13:28] Triss Gray: well, unless perhaps they say "i leave because but I owuld come back when"
[13:28] Smoke Wijaya: use I guess?
[13:29] Millennium Sands: I'm actually thinking about leaving ever since that adult crap came up and my account wasn't verified.
[13:29] Cibo Xue: eek-. use
[13:29] Triss Gray: nah, sue them :-)
[13:29] Mimika Oh: So, I think this land reduction campaign is also legal an not "cyber terrorism" which I really want to avoid!
[13:29] Smoke Wijaya: yeah, well, I am a bit different in that :)
[13:29] Triss Gray: except perhaps from the viewpoint of people making a living from land
[13:30] Cibo Xue: and people needing the tier to support their sims
[13:30] Smoke Wijaya: But I like the idea Mimika...
[13:30] Mimika Oh: Smoke, I would be happy to "play" at being a "cyber terrorist" but I mean that some of your proposals could be illegal in RL and I can't take the risk.
[13:30] Smoke Wijaya: I understand Mimika
[13:31] Mimika Oh: I think we do have to worry about angry LL coming for us with real laws.
[13:31] Smoke Wijaya: they dont have to...
[13:31] Mimika Oh: It might be a small risk, but I think it's a possibility.
[13:31] Smoke Wijaya: I mean, they just delete all of us when they get really pissed
[13:31] Cibo Xue: it is a possiblity to get angry LLs .. but there is no law being broken here
[13:31] Smoke Wijaya: I think they have not even noticed us yet really..other then individuals, but not slDM really as group
[13:31] Aeris Betsen: hello everybody
[13:31] Cibo Xue: hi Aeris ^^
[13:31] Smoke Wijaya: Hi :)
[13:31] Millennium Sands: Both options are possible.
[13:32] Triss Gray: hey!
[13:32] Mimika Oh: They delete, they ban our machines, and if we come back with new avatars then they might decide to take RL legal action, if we are successful at fighting them.
[13:32] Cibo Xue: if we get to the point, where this would happen, then we have enough impact to get to any blog out there and make them look really bad ^^
[13:33] Millennium Sands: Yes, that could be very true too. :D
[13:33] Mimika Oh: Well, this is a risk I think, if there is a policy to attack their RL systems (such as the AR system) or do RL damage to their revenue.
[13:34] Smoke Wijaya: anyways, that we also should investigate further the idea for getting support of blogs/websites
[13:34] Mimika Oh: Once we are beyond symbolic protest it's no longer just SL.
[13:34] Cibo Xue: SL is just a start .. there are other virtual worlds out there
[13:35] Smoke Wijaya: Hello Jay, welcome
[13:35] Mimika Oh: Yay! Democracy for WoW!
[13:35] Jay India: hello dems
[13:35] Cibo Xue: now that would be intersting
[13:35] Mimika Oh laughs
[13:35] Mimika Oh: Racism in WoW is rife.
[13:35] Cibo Xue: but WoW is a game .. not a virtual envoirament like SL
[13:36] Mimika Oh: Did you know gnomes aren't allowed to do certain jobs based on race? It's shameful!
[13:36] Triss Gray: lol
[13:36] Mimika Oh is only half joking
[13:37] Cibo Xue: it is normal in fantasy .. races got prefered jobs and abiliteis and are banned form others .. on the other side, it would be hard for a gnome to use a long bow and try to be a hunter ^^
[13:38] Mimika Oh: Even here in SL if you decide to be a "pixie" say, then a lot of RP rules will dictate your behaviour! It's quite oppressive.
[13:38] Triss Gray: but it is true that in the game they can't even try it :-)
[13:38] Smoke Wijaya: Sorry, got distracted for a moment...a comrade from italy died, just got message.
[13:38] Cibo Xue: a game usually don'T have the user created content
[13:38] Aeris Betsen: going to take a nap blha 8 h of clinicals drained me
[13:38] Aeris Betsen: hugs
[13:38] Triss Gray: ow, bad news
[13:38] Mimika Oh: I'm sorry to hear that Triss.
[13:39] Sensei Yoshikawa is Offline
[13:39] Cibo Xue: ohh.. I am sorry
[13:39] Triss Gray: my condoleances
[13:39] Millennium Sands: Well, but as a matter of fact, roleplayers accept these rules willingly.
[13:39] Smoke Wijaya: thanks
[13:40] Mimika Oh: Well I don't accept them willingly and I get ejected.
[13:40] Mimika Oh laughs
[13:40] Mimika Oh: Why can't I agitate for pixie rights? Apparently it's not allowed!
[13:40] Smoke Wijaya: hehe
[13:40] Cibo Xue: it depends on the rules but if you brake and argue them, then you will be ejected .. it depends o nthe rules and the admins in question to make them sound and logical
[13:40] Smoke Wijaya: yeah, "avatar rights" we stopped using....
[13:41] Smoke Wijaya: ...people react bad to that
[13:41] Smoke Wijaya: and think you truly are only talking about the avatar.
[13:41] Cibo Xue: yes.. avi rights sounds strange
[13:41] Mimika Oh: Ah, but Cibo, I think a lot of these RP sims are only about making the rules sound and consistent and logical and not about RP at all. The rules are more important than creative play.
[13:41] Millennium Sands: By the way: Cat ladys are not permitted to scratch up the carpet in my SL home. ;D
[13:41] Cibo Xue: and if you fight for pixi rights ICly, then no admin should stop you Mimika ^^ .. I wouldn't because it sounds liek fun
[13:42] Cibo Xue meows angrily
[13:42] Jay India: (^.^)/ ~~~
[13:42] Smoke Wijaya: Ok, I got to go people, I really enjoyed this meeting, thanks.
[13:42] Mimika Oh: Byebye Smoke.
[13:42] Cibo Xue: see you
[13:42] Millennium Sands: Byebye
[13:42] Smoke Wijaya: I will get a summary tomorrow evening on the website
[13:42] Mimika Oh: It is time for me too!
[13:42] Mimika Oh: I will write up my proposal.
[13:42] Smoke Wijaya: sweet