SL Issues Discussion_30Sept08

[12:02] You: we always have very open format discussions, so feel free to chat away :) [12:03] You: Hi Rin :) [12:03] Rin Tae: hihi [12:04] You: hmm, well, maybe some more people will show up .. but we might as well start [12:05] Rin Tae: it normally takes a bit ... before the people are here, but I think we ca nstart anyways [12:06] You: we do not really have a topic set ... but Rin did propose to discuss some more how rights would get implemented in a virtual (corporate) space and regarding voting possibilties... anyone else had an idea they wanted to discuss? [12:06] Straight Habilis: I'm new but very interested [12:06] Rin Tae: any virtual space actually that would commit itself to a democratic process [12:07] Smoke Wijaya nods... [12:07] You: we talked about the implementation of rights two weeeks ago, due to Metaplace incorporating user rights in their ToS (besides user rights being a spearhead of our group) [12:07] Straight Habilis: How do you here see SL in terms of its current freedoms? [12:08] Straight Habilis: say, compared to Metaspace [12:08] You: SL has a lot of freedoms actually ... but the freedoms are superfluous [12:08] Straight Habilis: In what way? [12:09] You: when you place the ToS on top of it ... it becomes c;lear that you have no rights or any protection of your assets or your acount...while LL has no accountability at all for actions taken. [12:09] You: ToS by the way, means Terms of Service...for those that might not knwo that .. [12:09] Rin Tae: the metapsace document is nice actually ... compared to SL .. the freedoms here are given, but only as much as the owneres would allow .. so in a way, the freedom here is as virtual as the world .. it can be taken away at any moemtn and all you can do is either to agree to it or to loose everyhting you had here and go. [12:09] Straight Habilis: Do they revoke people often? [12:10] You: revoke? [12:10] Straight Habilis: Kick people out [12:10] You: yes....this happens a lot [12:10] You: in different gradations [12:10] Triss Gray: hiya [12:10] Rin Tae: hi Triss.. good to see you! [12:10] You: suspensions and bannings [12:10] You: Hey Triss [12:10] Miroirs Hax: hey Triss [12:11] Arilynn Karu: But LL doesn't IP ban, right? [12:11] Triss Gray: they client-hash-ban :-) [12:11] Triss Gray: which means when you install the client, it generates a supposedly unique hash [12:11] Straight Habilis: What does that mean, hash-ban [12:12] You: now I did had my questions with Metaplace rights in the ToS ... their ToS is so much different from the SL/LL one. The latter is a document that creates zero accountability and free way to do what they please for LL ... I suspect such a document underneath Metaspace ToS as well... [12:12] Triss Gray: and I think they do IP-ban, judging from complaints from certain dynamic-ip connection [12:12] You: yeah, I did hear they do IP-ban [12:12] You: but only with simcrashers or serious offenders with sexual ageplay...that kind of things [12:12] You: but ... [12:13] You: we dont know of course .. there is zero transparency there as well [12:13] You: hash banning is banning the hardware, Miroirs [12:13] You: I thought [12:13] Rin Tae: what brings us back to my question .. when a democratic system in any kind is being implemented .. who will do the overseeing of the processes [12:14] Straight Habilis: Have there been any banning for political reasons that we know [12:14] You: connected to political reasons...but that context does not matter... [12:14] You: I would say no then... [12:14] You: the context DOES matter, but not for the AR team of LL...they dont investigate [12:14] Rin Tae: the LLs keep themselves out of political questions [12:14] Straight Habilis: OK [12:14] Triss Gray: well, that dude claiming he got suspended because of nazi stuff [12:15] Triss Gray: you could call that political [12:15] Straight Habilis: certainly you could [12:15] Triss Gray: don't remember his name [12:15] Straight Habilis: Does ACLU have a presence here, or have they commented on vitual lifee? [12:15] Triss Gray: you may remember, smoke, the whole discussion about selling wwII- stuff "for study" [12:15] You: well, we have indeed been suspended and banned as well for using swastika's on anti signs and builds...true [12:16] You: yes Triss, I know very well... [12:16] You: that is Das Waffenamt, which got closed [12:16] You: now [12:16] Rin Tae: really? [12:16] Miroirs Hax: who's "we" ? [12:16] You: sorry Miroirs, not SLDM, but anti-fnsl and other anti fascist/racist groups... [12:16] You: where I for one am part of... [12:17] Triss Gray: but swastikas and the like is more like the exception that confirms the "rule", in general, they tend to stay away from politics [12:17] Miroirs Hax: ahh, i see, cool [12:17] You: but as said, most of the bannings and suspensions there occured because of griefing them.... [12:17] You: yes Triss [12:17] Triss Gray: except that the banning/suspending depends on which side of a conflict files first, they are quite a-political :-) [12:18] Straight Habilis: What is SLDM's stand on banning griefers [12:18] Triss Gray: not against banning as such, but the reason for banning, and the decision process, should be "public" [12:18] Rin Tae: and even when I think most people will agree that griefers should bekicked .. I think, the process should be more transparent so people know and can see, that any case is being looked at so noone gets banned because of a mistake or somone fillign flase ARs [12:18] Straight Habilis: Good point [12:18] Rin Tae: *false [12:19] Arilynn Karu: How public? Does this include naming the target of the griefing or the extent nature of the griefing? [12:19] You: well, Straight, I can not answer that really... there is not really a stance we came at together .. no " official" stance if you will :) But the concept " griefer" is too broad for me... [12:19] Triss Gray: well, a "subject" should himself be explained the reason for being banned, clearly [12:19] Arilynn Karu: I agree, Triss [12:19] Triss Gray: and he/she should be able to follow an appeal process [12:20] You: when you now get banned or suspended, you do not know for what or where this occured even [12:20] You: without possibilty to appeal [12:20] You: well, sometimes place/region is still stated ... [12:20] Triss Gray: and that process itself should be "open" enough in order for the general public to "judge" whether the process works fairly [12:20] You: but as reason is just stated one of the violations articles [12:21] You: " disturbing the peace" [12:21] You: something like that [12:21] Straight Habilis: It causes a sort of personal insecruity when it is that capricious [12:21] Rin Tae: but then .. it will also need the LLs to listen to the public should the process be deemed unfair by them [12:21] You: yes Straight ... [12:22] You: and the same goes for your content [12:22] Rin Tae: and given the fact, that some peope invest a lot of time and money into this all here .. such insecurity doas hinder the development of this virtual envoirament in my opinion [12:22] Smoke Wijaya nods [12:23] You: you also hear this from educational and NGO's and such ... that some dont invest in SL because of that insecurity... [12:23] Straight Habilis: It's like being afraid some king will come in and take your fam [12:23] Straight Habilis: farm [12:23] Straight Habilis: and your fam [12:23] Arilynn Karu: Interesting thoughts. I'm sorry I have to go. Thanks, everyone [12:23] Rin Tae: since the more you create the more you want to keep it .. but right now .. even when it is stated, taht you have the rights to your creations, the LLs can still take everyhting away wihtout even having a special reason [12:23] Rin Tae: bye [12:23] Triss Gray: except there is no king, only barons interpreting the rules as if they all were kings :-) [12:24] Triss Gray: thx for coming arilynn [12:24] Straight Habilis: good point [12:24] You: (btw, does anyone have objections against this chatlog being published? if so, do state this and we will change your name in "speaker1" etc) [12:24] Straight Habilis: I dont object [12:24] Triss Gray: neitherµ [12:24] Triss Gray: hehe, this remembers me that this one day a received a phonecall from "mr X" :-) [12:25] Triss Gray: that* I* [12:25] Straight Habilis: LL doesnt want to lose SL to some government action, and one day these virtual worlds will be as importnat as RL to many, already are to some [12:25] Rin Tae: mr. X? [12:25] Triss Gray: turned out he was really named "iks" :-) [12:25] Rin Tae: hehe [12:25] Triss Gray: and employee of the phone company [12:25] Triss Gray: but this aside [12:25] Triss Gray: :-) [12:25] You: hehe [12:26] You: Straight, yes, with decentralisation of production and power .. they will loose their grip on SL... [12:26] You: that will be hard to do for them .. unless it somehow can be shown that it is in their own good [12:26] Triss Gray: well, I think in the long term establishing a good governing structure is beneficial for them as well [12:26] Triss Gray: if they don't, someone else will [12:27] Miroirs Hax: sounds like a big social experiment (ooh, conspiracies) how do people act if god (LL) does exist for certain. (not knowing when your avatar gets zapped, adding realism, lets pray) hmm, no religions form, but in rl he does not and...argh [12:27] Triss Gray: and there's probably some services they can sell to the populace in it [12:27] Rin Tae: the problem is .. SL is international already and wiht this, one gov will find it legally problematic to implement rules .. so it´s only bannin it completly .. china or some arabic states ... or allowing it since controlling is a problem [12:27] Straight Habilis: Yes, but one day in the far future these worlds will be a huge cultural force [12:27] Triss Gray: no future! :-) [12:27] Rin Tae: predictions are difficult .. especially when concerning the future [12:28] Straight Habilis: yes right Triss [12:28] Straight Habilis: of course you are right too Rin [12:28] Rin Tae: right now .. I must admit, that I have no idea how virtual worlds will develop or what part they will have in the future of the internet [12:29] You: and lol Miroirs, most are complacent .. some will rebel .. and overthrow god eventually. [12:29] Triss Gray: maybe we could make a time-plywood-cube :-) fill it with ideas for the future, and re-rez it in say 10 years :-) [12:30] Triss Gray: and see what became of it :-) [12:30] Straight Habilis: One you cant dig up eletronically ahead of time [12:30] You: I wonder aboutt eh future as well ... of VWs ..Microsoft and Google both do not see user created content/worlds as the killer app [12:31] Triss Gray: that's just because they are jealous they haven't come up with it [12:31] Rin Tae: without user created content .. you can sell more company created content [12:31] Smoke Wijaya nods [12:31] Triss Gray: and google only believes in user created as far as rthey can datamine it for profit :-) [12:31] You: lol [12:31] Miroirs Hax: i would bet on some sort of "3D" desktop where you startup right into a seamless "universe" perhaps. [12:31] Rin Tae: and now in SL .. you don'T need money to make things .. jsut time and creativity [12:32] Straight Habilis: VWs are so immersive they do and will get into peoples heads in ways other forms of communication cant and dont [12:32] You: yes [12:33] Straight Habilis: In some ways I am more defensive about this lifethan the other i have [12:33] Straight Habilis: In the sense that I want to defend my right to it [12:34] You: I like to defend the one in meatspace as well :) [12:34] Triss Gray: logical, most of us aren't in a situation where they have to defenfd the right of their first life: -) [12:34] You: thats true [12:34] Triss Gray: or at least not to the same extent [12:34] Straight Habilis: Well, in some countries perhaps [12:34] You: in that regard .. dont fight for my existence in the Netherlands, no [12:34] Straight Habilis: And not so much so far in the USA but who knows? [12:34] Triss Gray: I would even go as far as to say that for most people that is a must-have beforet hey even bother to use sl and others [12:35] Rin Tae: but in those countries, internet access is rather rare.. so those who have to fight in RL .. are not here [12:35] Smoke Wijaya nods [12:35] Straight Habilis: That's a good point. [12:35] Triss Gray: you need to have a certain "life support" before "culture" starts [12:35] Triss Gray: or higher forms of culture [12:36] Triss Gray: bleh, higher is the wrong word, it implies better [12:36] Triss Gray: more sophisticated [12:36] Straight Habilis: Yes, but I cant help this feeling that a loss of my SL is in some ways as impt as my loss of RL. I know it sounds strange but I know what I feel. [12:36] Rin Tae: ohh.. culture breaks down quite fast in the right situation ... and history shows, that even highly cultural countries are not safe from this ... [12:36] Triss Gray: yes, rin, usually in a situation where that "life supoort" is threatened sufficientlky [12:36] Straight Habilis: So to have a capricous system causes insecurity. I know I am not alone [12:37] Triss Gray: my typing is not a form of "high culture" today :-) [12:37] You: you are not Straight [12:37] Miroirs Hax: such cultural layer is rather thin imho, if people can use SL for practical reasons (wealth, can also be in a very poor country) they likely will [12:37] Rin Tae: ohh. it is not strange .. just like in RL, SL provides us with a circle of people we like and spend time with .. with activiteis we like to do and things we like to experiance .. so it is a second life and loosing all this would force us to adjust our first life to fill this gap again [12:38] Straight Habilis: And quite frankly, those people who like me need and demand a right to a SL are the people I want to know, they are like me. [12:38] Straight Habilis: I dont care what the psychology of it is, I know it the right path [12:38] You: lol [12:38] Rin Tae: hehe [12:39] Triss Gray: mm, I know what I want, whether it is the "right" path, only time will tell :-) [12:39] Straight Habilis: I got to 61 not being in the nut house, so I must not be crazy [12:39] You: hmm, you guys are sure ... I just know what I think is the right start of a long, in clouds covered road.... [12:40] You: oh wow Straight, you are over 60? awesome [12:40] Triss Gray: a yellow brick road? [12:40] Straight Habilis: Yes, and here I am [12:41] You: hehe, cool, I suddenly feel young again [12:41] Miroirs Hax: people that say of themselves they are not crazy...are the worst ones :) [12:41] Straight Habilis: The past is past. The people in this room are the new freedom fighter [12:41] You: I wish I could agree with that Straight [12:41] Rin Tae: I wouldn'T call us that way [12:42] You: there are too many struggles in Rl [12:42] Straight Habilis: I haveto go. More later and thank all of you so much. [12:42] Triss Gray: I can live with activist, but i'm not a fighter [12:42] Miroirs Hax: see you Straight [12:42] You: ok Straight, nice to meet you [12:42] You: see you [12:42] Rin Tae: since when it comes to freedom, it is not jsut about SL, but about the whole of the internet .. free afordable access for all.. [12:42] Triss Gray: bye! [12:42] Rin Tae: bye [12:42] Triss Gray: Actually, i'm just in it for when the brain interface is invented ;-) [12:43] You: lol [12:43] You: yeah, I know I will shoot me a bio port as soon as they are avaiable as well [12:43] You: hehe [12:43] Rin Tae: .. lately .. I have been thinking a lot about how it would feel being digitalized [12:43] You: you did? [12:43] You: did you get an idea? [12:44] Rin Tae: yrs .. but I stopped when I realised, that I can't really imagine how it is to see data streams [12:44] Smoke Wijaya nods [12:44] Triss Gray: well, if it's done "right" you shouldn't :-) [12:44] Miroirs Hax: when that happens, pornindustry will keep us from a second great recession [12:44] Triss Gray: hehe, even now "porn" is a big part of sl [12:44] You: this is the qualitative consciousness problem with all imagining what " it is to be" something else [12:44] Triss Gray: pixelslapping ftw [12:45] Miroirs Hax: hah [12:45] Rin Tae: porn is a big part of everything ....... it never changed since the humans left the caves [12:45] You: Miroirs, porn is indeed already a big force behind tech development .. teledildo's, body suits for touch... [12:45] Triss Gray: so you mean that guy that drew the first buffalo on a wall.... [12:45] You: hehe Rin, indeed [12:45] You: yes Triss [12:45] You: lol [12:45] Miroirs Hax: hah Triss [12:46] Miroirs Hax: too many details Smoke [12:46] You: lol [12:46] You: well, I know I would really want to have touch in SL or virtual worlds ... [12:46] You: and I think that will be a revolution in itself [12:46] Triss Gray: oh well, I guess when there is "real" 3d it'll all be more of the same :-) but one can dream :-) [12:47] Rin Tae: it would.. and it would be intersting .. especially for building as it would kind of allow to move the prims in your hands [12:47] Triss Gray: lol, prim splinters [12:47] You: haha [12:47] You: scultping a prim with your hand movements, while feeling the shape... yeah [12:48] You: that would be something [12:48] Rin Tae: such a system would drive the creativity levels up through the celling [12:48] Miroirs Hax: such things already exist, but no one wants to sit with a VR helmet on (these things are around forever but never took off commercially) , same with touchgloves etc. [12:48] Triss Gray: people would finally be able to really live the clay pottery scene from "ghost" :-) [12:48] You: yes Miroirs [12:49] You: VR liek tat will only take off when in small glasses, or directly projected on retina [12:49] You: or .. direct brain interface [12:49] Triss Gray: atm the cost vs function is also not quite optimal [12:49] Miroirs Hax: true Triss, but would quickly be were there a demand [12:49] Rin Tae: but what the systems lacked so far was comfort .. there have been big and heavy .. and grafics have also not been the best ... put modern day game grafics and a comfortable VR helmet together and it might look totally differnet [12:49] Triss Gray: mm, most of the tech I seen wasn't that advanced really [12:50] Triss Gray: immersive in the way of cinema, not in the way of "life" [12:50] Miroirs Hax: right now miniature display technology has really gotten very good (high resolution) and cheap, think digital camera's [12:50] You: Hello Tajah, welcome :) [12:51] Miroirs Hax: resolution was the main problem so far [12:51] Tajah Arashi: Hi Okay to join? [12:51] You: yeah, definetly [12:51] Triss Gray: and that's still only vision [12:51] Triss Gray: most of the touch stuff is even more limited [12:52] Rin Tae: but such things are only technological problems [12:52] You: but when this tech comes around ... the questions about rights of users/avatars become even more stressing [12:52] Triss Gray: sure [12:52] Rin Tae: it becomes more stressing the more a virtual world impacts the Real one [12:53] Rin Tae: the bigger the influance, the bigger the problem with rights [12:54] You: and I think that when the sense of virtual reality becomes truly " real" this in itself will evoke already more the need for them, I think [12:54] You: hmm, that might be a bit unclear... [12:55] Rin Tae: that is .. if we menage to stop the current trend of hacking away rights in RL .. but thats a different discussion [12:56] Rin Tae: ohh.. brb for a moment [12:56] You: ok [12:57] You: now Rin touched upon RL with rights ... let me ask this .. do you guys think that the current financial crisis will have influence on SL/LL? [12:57] Triss Gray: mm, maybe in the way that people will tend to spend less in general, and thus less here [12:58] Triss Gray: apart from that, there isn't much financial stuff in here anyway :-) [12:58] Triss Gray: though they did try to start some stock market stuff [12:58] Triss Gray: which I hope will not take on [12:58] You: yeah...that they had to stop, or radically change [12:58] You: when they banned the banking [12:58] Triss Gray: there's enough gambling in sl without that :-) [12:59] You: right [13:00] Rin Tae: but apart from the detials ... the general economic situation in RL doas influance the situation in SL .. since people spend moeny here it is jsut like in RL .. they spend less when the situation is not good and more when it is better [13:00] Rin Tae: so it´s not jsu about this one crisis, but about the overall situation [13:00] Rin Tae: *just [13:00] You: right, ok [13:01] Triss Gray: is it just me, or is almost anything quite slow sl-wise? [13:01] You: you mean lag? [13:01] Rin Tae: how slow? [13:01] Triss Gray: yes [13:01] You: feeling ok at this end [13:01] Miroirs Hax: we're sorry Triss, it's tuesday and we're sleepy [13:01] Rin Tae: lag is sometimes better, sometimes worse [13:02] You: lol [13:02] You: are we slow or SL? [13:02] Triss Gray: mm, maybe I should try a relog then [13:02] Triss Gray: brb then [13:02] You: ok [13:03] Rin Tae: kk .. that helps normally [13:03] Rin Tae: wb [13:04] You: feeling better? [13:04] Triss Gray: ty [13:04] Miroirs Hax: yeah, everytime i do that people think "oh, now he's gone i can quickly leave" and everyone's gone when i come back and things are fast and smooth [13:04] You: lol [13:04] Triss Gray: :-) [13:04] You: thats mean [13:04] Triss Gray: seems a bit better now [13:05] Triss Gray: at least now letter appear when I press the key instead of 10 secs later :-) [13:05] Triss Gray: maybe they put in some new memory leaks in the client :-) [13:05] You: I did not upgrade yet [13:05] Rin Tae: I recomd everybody to spend some time in RP sims when they are busy .after that you will only laugh at what other people call 'lag' [13:05] You: lol Rin [13:05] Triss Gray: well, I was at burning life yesterday [13:05] Miroirs Hax: :) [13:06] Triss Gray: the main sim could be called laggy :-) [13:06] You: yeah, burning life made me freeze several times [13:06] Rin Tae: what is burning life? [13:06] You: I never have that... [13:06] Triss Gray: the sl version of burning man [13:06] Miroirs Hax: what's burning man [13:06] Rin Tae: ahh.. they should call it burning linden [13:06] You: I thought it was the virtual version of nthe RL event with the same name, which I thought is some gathering in a desert in US of artists [13:07] You: http://www.burningman.com/ [13:08] Rin Tae: todays burning man is just another comercialised festival like all the others [13:08] Triss Gray: "selebration of art, fire and community" [13:08] Triss Gray: celebration* [13:08] Miroirs Hax: cool [13:08] Rin Tae: but I wasn't there so far ... so I can'T tell for sure [13:08] Triss Gray: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Burning_Life [13:08] Triss Gray: if you go into the cave at deep ole, it explains the concept rather well [13:09] Triss Gray: but be prepared to wait some time till stuff appears :-) [13:09] Triss Gray: deep hole* [13:09] Rin Tae: thats normal ........ [13:10] Miroirs Hax: oh well [13:10] Triss Gray: lol: Zero Drama Tolerance [13:10] Miroirs Hax: what are you guys usually upto in SL when you aren't SLDM'ing [13:10] Triss Gray: "wandering" :-) [13:11] Rin Tae: building, wondering, rping, shopping [13:11] Rin Tae: and wandering .. but wondering also [13:12] Rin Tae: and trying to learn how to type without making mistakes [13:12] You: I have been/am active in several left radical political groups ... organising ..as well as oppossing (griefing) neo nazi's/fascists ... and lots of philosophical and political discussion at Philosophy House [13:12] You: and building ... yes [13:12] Miroirs Hax: friends don't see typo's [13:12] Triss Gray: since you ask, I'm somewhat thinking about starting a group related to film etc, but I probably will not have enough time and not find enough interest [13:12] Rin Tae: I have been doing political discussions as well, but the place isn'T there any more where I used to do it [13:12] Triss Gray: and I'm not the "leader" type :-p [13:13] You: Yeah Rin, I think you refer to Conscious Lounge .. and its a shame it is gone [13:13] Miroirs Hax: im here to find interesting people/conversations as well, and usually hop around scientific/philisophical discussion events if there are any [13:13] You: good things came out of that [13:13] Rin Tae: yes... I loved it .. it is still there actually, but not as a active group like it was once [13:13] Triss Gray: sometimes I go to some live music (the really live ones), interesting discussions, tec [13:15] You: Miroirs, if you are into discussion, check out "philosophy house" sometime.... [13:15] Miroirs Hax: you always run into the same people (Triss) when you follow discussion events, there don't seem many, all other people (not Triss) seem to dance [13:15] You: bring yourself a thick skin though [13:15] Miroirs Hax: thanks Smoke, i'll go take a look there soon [13:16] You: almost 24/7 people are there ... [13:16] You: but dont expect always deep discussion ... since there are no events and moderators and all... [13:16] Rin Tae: I have the problem always forgeting about discussion events I want to go to ..... *hides in shame* [13:16] You: thats the beauty of it as well though