SL Issues Discussion_7Oct08

[SL Issues Discussion of 7 October 08, where we discussed possibility for voting(system) concerning SL/LL .. we kind of got stuck with the "WHO". We will discuss this topic more, beyond the WHO at next discussion, the one at 14th October. The "You" in the log is me, Smoke Wijaya]
[12:08] You: Welcome at SLDM's regular SL Issues Discussion. We have these discussions each tuesday, same time, same place. Today we will discuss the issue of voting and eletronic/online voting system for SL
[12:09] Rin Tae: and .. what is needed for them to have a fair and legitimate voting procedure
[12:09] You: What are the difficulties, what are the necessary conditions? How will alts/bots need to be handled, ID verifying, conditions for software/hardware? What is needed to have a trusted and secure system, or maybe this is not possible?
[12:09] Annabelle Piaggio: (ck, mouse is acting up)
[12:09] You: Is there even a need for such a system? SLDM does think that voting can be a helpful tool in bringing deliberation/negotiation around policy decisions between LL and SL-user; one of our goals is negotiation about contract/ToS changes. What do you think?
[12:10] You: These discussions are always free and open, so do jump in with your thoughts...."the floor is open" :)
[12:10] Trinity Coulter: in olden times, only people with land could vote.... maybe only payment verified people or landowners could vote
[12:10] Rin Tae: or even on a much smaller level with allowing groups to govern themselves in a democratic ways ..what I think would increase the ability for communites to form
[12:11] Trinity Coulter: the "Proposal" stuff in the Group tools is really lame
[12:11] You: yes
[12:11] Triss Gray: well, the aim should of course be so that as many people as possible will be able to vote, without having alts/bots voting
[12:11] You: never use that...often broken as well, the proposal function
[12:11] Straight Habilis: What does LL say about the possibility of a voting procedure
[12:12] You: and it is not meaningful, there is no "force" attacjed to the proposal-function as well
[12:12] You: attached*
[12:12] Rin Tae: so the group system would be at the very base of this
[12:13] You: Straight, I would not know. I actually think they have nothing said about that....but Trinity just said that they used to have voting for landowners...
[12:13] You: Trinity, this was not the feature voting tool, right?
[12:13] Rin Tae: but .. what TRiss said.. that as many people as possible should be able to vote .. this is right in my opinion too, but it brings the problem of alt/bot identification
[12:13] Trinity Coulter: i was saying olden days, like 1776
[12:13] You: or, did you make comparison with RL?
[12:13] You: ah
[12:13] You: :)
[12:13] Trinity Coulter: King John
[12:13] Trinity Coulter: Magna Carta
[12:13] Trinity Coulter: etc
[12:14] Smoke Wijaya nods...
[12:14] You: and I agree with Rin and Triss that all should be allowed to vote
[12:14] Rin Tae: and in the discussions about this, such a system has been proposed for SL too
[12:14] Trinity Coulter: all SHOULD be allowed to vote, but with anonymity of identity, some people CAN vote many times
[12:14] Trinity Coulter: therefore its unfair
[12:15] You: right, alt/bots are a problem
[12:15] Trinity Coulter: wouldn't you think that people who have more of a stake would fairly be granted a vote before those who have none?
[12:15] Rin Tae: yes.. thats why some form of safe identification of alts and bots is needed ... and the who is overseeing this system too
[12:15] Triss Gray: well, the way I see it is all = each natural person
[12:15] You: it looks like when you want to combat that, RL ID verification is needed for that system...
[12:16] Triss Gray: NOT all = each avatar
[12:16] Rin Tae: it depends on how you define a stake in this world
[12:16] You: yes Triss...good point
[12:16] Trinity Coulter: landowners and payment people have a stake in things more so than the casual person
[12:16] You: I don't agree
[12:16] Triss Gray: me neither
[12:16] Annabelle Piaggio: So real life business owners should have two votes as well?
[12:16] Annabelle Piaggio: One person, one vote
[12:16] Rin Tae: financial stake ... I for myself feel to have a stake in this world through all the things I build and create
[12:17] Triss Gray: it's not because you have land or money that you should have a bigger say
[12:17] You: landowners do probably pay more then anyone else...but payment info used does not at all say they have a big stake or even invest a lot in SL...
[12:17] Trinity Coulter: how does a person with a newbie account, 10 minutes old have the ability to understand any of the issues before them, or have a stake in things?
[12:17] Triss Gray: we have enough of that RL
[12:17] Trinity Coulter: this isn't RL tho
[12:17] You: and the investment can be divers.
[12:17] Triss Gray: a person with a newb account wouldn't probably know how/where to vote
[12:17] Rin Tae: besides .. a age limit to vote is a good idea in my opinion
[12:17] Trinity Coulter: so voting shouldn't be mob rule
[12:17] Triss Gray: well, any people here should be 18+ :-)
[12:17] Rin Tae: I mean SL age
[12:17] Trinity Coulter: it should be based on getting informed people to the polls
[12:17] Samoooo Svoboda: what about an electorate style system... groups get a vote based on membership numbers. Surely there is a way to check for alt/bots based on IP locations and group membership meetings
[12:17] You: that is something I did think about too though....that you have to be of a certain "age " in SL...
[12:18] You: to vote.
[12:18] Triss Gray: mm, then some people would quickly start buying votes I think
[12:18] Triss Gray: join my group and receive xxx l$
[12:18] Pella Nightfire: there are alts and bots that have been around for awhile though
[12:19] Trinity Coulter: democracy only works with citizens who are willing to make decisions as if they were as wise as the philosopher king
[12:19] Rin Tae: in the end, no system is perfect of course .. but when thinking about it, we should try to get to the best possible solution
[12:19] You: Samoooo, and I dislike your proposal since it works towards a representative model, where belonging to a group becomes a necessity to have a say.
[12:19] Trinity Coulter: if you have completely ignorant voters, you will get ignorant decisions
[12:19] Annabelle Piaggio: Like in RL?
[12:19] Trinity Coulter: yes
[12:20] Annabelle Piaggio: Well it seems to work, we´re still here
[12:20] Smoke Wijaya nods .. educated citizens is a necessity
[12:20] Trinity Coulter: which is why 1 person 1 vote isn't always best for the interests of humanity
[12:20] Triss Gray: and then you assume that people with land aren't ignorant ;-)
[12:20] Annabelle Piaggio: That´s not very democratic is it?
[12:20] Samoooo Svoboda: thinking out loud :-)
[12:20] Rin Tae: that is .. what are the interests of humanity .. the worse murderers and dictators have acted in the intersto fhumanity
[12:20] Trinity Coulter: no, i simply assume they have money on the line and therefore take their stake in things here more seriously... it is still motivated by self-interest
[12:20] You: sure Samoooo, please continue :)
[12:21] Trinity Coulter: eep need to run
[12:21] Trinity Coulter: *hugs all*
[12:21] Trinity Coulter: good luck :)
[12:21] Rin Tae waves
[12:21] You: Trinity, but having money on the line cannot be deduced from landownership or just payment info on file/used
[12:21] Pella Nightfire: there are those without land or businesses who do take sl seriously
[12:21] Triss Gray: mm, the current economy is a nice example of self-interest being not equal with acting responsably
[12:21] You: yes Pella
[12:21] Rin Tae: <-- is taking it very seriously
[12:21] Annabelle Piaggio: Own fault
[12:21] You: and also non payment info on file accounts, the basic accounts, that do have business and rent land etc
[12:21] Triss Gray: so equalling voting power with assets in sl is a big no no if you ask me
[12:22] Pella Nightfire: I do as well, i rent land but no payment on file
[12:22] You: right
[12:22] Triss Gray: since voting will probably mean some kind of account verification, one would have to go through the trouble of registering in that system and all that, so that would imply a certain minimal amount of interest anyway, I think
[12:23] Annabelle Piaggio: Allowing only financially involved people to vote isn´t democracy, it´s olygarchy
[12:23] You: (BTW, anyone objection to their name appearing on our blog, when we post this chatlog?? If so, do speak up, and we will change your name to anynomous one.)
[12:23] Rin Tae: exactly
[12:23] Pella Nightfire: would it make sense to send in a copy of ones ID
[12:23] You: yes Annabelle
[12:24] Pella Nightfire: i have heard people being uncomfortable with that idea on imvu
[12:24] Triss Gray: pella: that's kind of what they tried with age verification
[12:24] Pella Nightfire: they didn't trust the company with that
[12:24] Pella Nightfire: ok
[12:24] Triss Gray: and I agree that's probably not the way to go
[12:24] Rin Tae: and here comes another problem .. what organisation would be needed to take care of this?
[12:24] Triss Gray: and in a lot of cases, that system just doesn't work
[12:24] Rin Tae: the company with this age verification nonsense was a joke
[12:25] You: they tried ID verification as you might know Pella .. with this third party. But many many people distrust the mother-company of this .. and the process is borked as well, since people have verified themsleves with dead people's info and even as mickey mouse I thought
[12:25] Samoooo Svoboda: Even rl voting has flaws. Some people vote multiple times with absentee etc...
[12:25] Triss Gray: and people have failed to verify with valid info
[12:25] Triss Gray: I can know, I tried :-)
[12:25] Rin Tae: as it was stated a few times doring the discussions around this, that they can'T have the daa they claimed to have or if they have them then it would be illegal for them to have them
[12:25] You: no Triss, just acknowledge it, you are non-existent :)
[12:25] Triss Gray: well, officially they don't save any info
[12:26] Annabelle Piaggio: That´s what they all say
[12:26] Triss Gray: well, google admits it saves everything :-)
[12:26] Annabelle Piaggio: The market for these data is just too big to ignore it
[12:26] Triss Gray: at least some are fair crooks :-)
[12:26] Rin Tae: sure.. but when voting is concerend, then some form of id is needed
[12:26] Straight Habilis: Must go, very interesting, see you all again
[12:26] You: yes...
[12:26] Triss Gray: I was thinking something along the line of phone verification
[12:26] You: Bye Straigth, see you
[12:26] You: Hello DonJuan, welcome
[12:26] DonJuan Writer: hi
[12:26] Triss Gray: where you would eg get a code or sth
[12:27] Annabelle Piaggio: What about disabled people then? Like the hearing impaired
[12:27] Triss Gray: that doesn't exclude false id's
[12:27] Rin Tae: and whoever would be doing it would need to be controlled by the parties involved in the voting to make sure, that it is just and fair
[12:27] Triss Gray: but limits it to the nr of phones you posess :-)
[12:27] Triss Gray: annabelle: well, alternatives could be provide, eg texting instead of spoken info
[12:27] Rin Tae: to quote Stalin on this: "It is not important who is voting, but who is counting the votes"
[12:28] Triss Gray: and stalin could know :-)
[12:28] Triss Gray: he was the one counting :-)
[12:28] DonJuan Writer: it is not important who is counting, it's who is Stalin
[12:28] You: yes Rin, I also think that whatever org that handles the identification and voting process should be under public scrutiny and using trusted software/hardware (and LL is not this organisation)
[12:29] Rin Tae: LL is a interested party in this, so they can'T be this organisation by definition
[12:29] Triss Gray: mm, if we are somewhat realistic though, that's not likely to happen soon
[12:29] Triss Gray: I mean, it would be a triumph for them to just acknowledge voting
[12:29] You: they do Triss, at the pjira
[12:29] Triss Gray: not really
[12:30] Trinity Coulter: the voting at the Jira doesn't matter
[12:30] You: the whole idea of the voting is to get it meaningful, to have something to force a decision or halt it as userbase....
[12:30] Triss Gray: they probably look sooner to voted upon stuff
[12:30] Triss Gray: but apart from that, they do with it as the want
[12:30] Rin Tae: and even when it is a long process .. somewhere it needs to start
[12:30] You: Hi Kitty, welcome
[12:30] Samoooo Svoboda: Not to be cynical, but it seems there are too many variables... In a situation where anonimity is valued
[12:30] Kitty Barnett waves
[12:31] Rin Tae: of course .. it´s all part of the problem we are trying to solve
[12:31] Rin Tae: and getting ideas is one of the reasons for those discussions
[12:31] You: without thinking up alternatives, the alternatives wont happen either me thinks
[12:31] Kitty Barnett: voting is a way to keep the community busy... I've had a few accepted JIRAs with zero votes just because I mentioned it at the appropriate office hour, because it had a fix attached, or because they just happened to feel like fixing it.....
[12:32] You: right Kitty, I see
[12:32] Rin Tae: so thats like a proof, that voting on jira is next to useless
[12:32] You: the other way it works as well ... take the issue regarding the grouplimit
[12:32] Kitty Barnett: the more work it is, the less likely it'll ever get done, no matter what the votes :o
[12:33] Kitty Barnett: most of mine are always little thingies
[12:33] Triss Gray: we do see voting as bigger then what the jira currently is though
[12:33] You: I still think the pjira is not the venue for social issues concerning SL, which often spread around multiple technical issues, but ok...
[12:33] Triss Gray: eg, they would have to accept the outcome of voting, they would have to make public what efforts have been taken, etc
[12:33] Rin Tae: it´s voting on a social community level
[12:35] You: what made us think about this again, is the late use of LL of the forums for feedback concerning adfarms and mainland zoning...there is no force behind LL to listen to any of the comments
[12:35] Triss Gray: it's more like a diversion
[12:35] You: we thought a referenda-style check on the final policy would be "easy" way to infuse the process with meaningful resident-governance
[12:35] Rin Tae: yes, but maybe if they start listening to people .. it could be seen as a beginning
[12:35] Kitty Barnett thinks LL would encourage community voting as fitting in their "resident-resident governance" principle... they'll just ignore the outcome if it's something that concerns them
[12:35] Annabelle Piaggio: You can always vote with your wallet to get LL into gear
[12:36] Triss Gray: mm, the problem with wallet voting is, amongst others, that there are no real alternatives
[12:36] You: that would be a great start already Kitty...
[12:36] Rin Tae: because once a community tastes power, it will want more
[12:36] Rin Tae: hehe
[12:36] Annabelle Piaggio: If they don´t live up to your expectation what are you doing here anyway then? If the product is bad I don´t use it
[12:36] DonJuan Writer: perhaps they could start small with a "vote island" where people come to vote on how the island goes... atest bed
[12:36] You: although we are also very focussed on the ToS...in this regard negotiation about the ToS/policy changes, ie the pretext of the ToS.
[12:37] You: Hello Natalina, welcome :) ( did not see you come in)
[12:37] Rin Tae: but the product is good .. it could be better ... we shout at the lindens because we love SL you could say
[12:37] You: I second that
[12:37] Triss Gray: and also a little because we like shouting :-d
[12:38] Annabelle Piaggio: Sure I get that but LL is a company and they care only for one thing, money, pull it out and they´ll have to listen to get it back
[12:38] Triss Gray: but even a bugged sl is better then none at all :-)
[12:38] You: yes Annabelle, but LL is also a company that choose to let its users build LL's product ( on top of th other product, the SLgrid)
[12:38] Annabelle Piaggio: Sounds like you´re already satisfied then
[12:39] Triss Gray: no
[12:39] Rin Tae: sure.. but they also depend on the creativity of residents .. so I think they should acknowledge this and the fact, that SL would be small and dull without all of us
[12:39] Triss Gray: you can "like" what's there, without being satisfied
[12:39] Annabelle Piaggio: Like Myspace or Facebook. I´m on your side but you gotta find other ways to make them listen and accept their customers "vote"
[12:39] Annabelle Piaggio: And that´s by hitting them where it hurts
[12:40] Rin Tae: that is always a possiblity
[12:40] Triss Gray: I don't think there's any chance that'll happen though
[12:40] Rin Tae: but to make it hurt, it need a lot of people
[12:40] Triss Gray: not until there is at least some decent alternative, to satisfy the needy :-)
[12:40] Rin Tae: yesyes
[12:40] You: and to make it a message, a lot of people need to do it at once...
[12:40] Annabelle Piaggio: Of course, it´s the same with Rl issues... people aren´t annoyed enough yet
[12:41] Rin Tae: but this brings us the other reason for this discussion .. to make people think and learn more about such issues
[12:41] You: Hello KentRail. welcome
[12:41] KentRail Hughes: hello thank you
[12:43] Annabelle Piaggio: ^^
[12:43] Rin Tae: *crash test*
[12:43] Rin Tae: hehe
[12:43] You: reading back, seeing where we derailed...
[12:43] Triss Gray: *crash*
[12:43] Annabelle Piaggio: You´re still alive don´t worry
[12:44] Rin Tae: it needs to be checked from time to time .... SL liekes to crash without telling you about it
[12:44] Annabelle Piaggio: I know *sighs*
[12:44] Rin Tae sighs too
[12:44] Triss Gray: it helps if you keep the statistics panel open
[12:45] Triss Gray: when the bandwidth stays 0 for some time, it's likely a disconnect :-)
[12:46] Rin Tae: but it is true that it is more stable then it once was ... so someone seem to have done something right finally
[12:46] You: what about bots? Will the existence of bots make any voting proces on the internet meaningless?
[12:46] Rin Tae: only if you not manage to find a system to filter them out
[12:46] Annabelle Piaggio: That would be difficult, to Sl they´re regular users
[12:47] Rin Tae: it is a bit like a never ending bettle .. better protection will always lead to the creation of better bots
[12:47] Rin Tae: but it is not meaningless
[12:48] Annabelle Piaggio: Every election on the net can be rigged, I´m afraid there´s no way to be 100% sure
[12:48] Kitty Barnett: just restrict any voting to paying (premium/sim owning/L$ buying) residents
[12:48] You: Well, we did say I think that we talk about "one vote, one Rl person"...when a trusted ID verification is connected to it, then it aint possible to have more...
[12:48] Rin Tae: it just needs a way to block them from voting .. what I think might be easier then doing the same with alt accounts
[12:48] You: Why do people want to keep restricting the votes :)
[12:49] Trinity Coulter: because letting anyone vote opens more opportunities for problems
[12:49] Kitty Barnett: because non-tier paying, non-L$ buying people are "tourists", not residents
[12:49] Triss Gray: as said earlier, many people don't own land, or get l$ through other sources, or have good reasons not to go premium
[12:49] Trinity Coulter: and statistically you would probably get equivalent results
[12:49] Rin Tae is a tourist by this definition
[12:49] Triss Gray: which doesn't necessary equal "usefullness"
[12:49] You: Kitty, owning land may be a clear sign that you invest money in SL, but it surely is not the only group that has investing in SL, whether that is money or time, or effort, whatever.
[12:50] You: Kitty, but people dont have to be payment info used to be active inworld, to have busines, to rent land etc
[12:50] Trinity Coulter: teachers, builders, etc
[12:50] Kitty Barnett: if you don't put money into SL you don't have anything invested in it....
[12:50] Trinity Coulter: ok, then create some way for people to show other "investments"
[12:50] Rin Tae: time
[12:50] Rin Tae: lots of time
[12:50] Trinity Coulter: otherwise, no vote
[12:50] Kitty Barnett: doesn't mean you should get a say in how things work
[12:50] Triss Gray: don't agree
[12:50] Kitty Barnett: no paying residents, no SL... no non-paying residents, no change
[12:51] Annabelle Piaggio: The love for oligarchy in Sl is truly stunning
[12:51] You: the big landbarons having rentals only can pay that amount of tier to LL *because* of the basic accounts
[12:51] Trinity Coulter: its not a love of oligarchy
[12:51] Trinity Coulter: its an understanding that those who have a true stake will be better citizens and voters
[12:51] Trinity Coulter: you already showed other types of "investment"
[12:51] Triss Gray: and true stake can only mean have money in it
[12:52] Triss Gray: sad sad planet :-(
[12:52] Annabelle Piaggio: Better citizens, nice way to put it
[12:52] Trinity Coulter: figure out a way to recognize those people as well
[12:52] You: Trinity, that aint possible...
[12:52] You: which can bring us two ways...
[12:52] You: let only paying members vote, or all
[12:52] Trinity Coulter: how is it impossible to recognize a person who invests time as a teacher here?
[12:52] Rin Tae: and besides .. I would assume, that I have already build more things that makes SL looks a bit nicer then the majority of land owning people who are actually buying and paying for what I build .. so .. yes .. I do think that they are not better then me and therefor should not have some exclusive voting club only for them
[12:52] You: ( with a SL age limit)
[12:53] Triss Gray: ow come on, like if you don't have money you need to get approved by some comittee that will judge whether you are "good" enough for voting?
[12:53] You: well, Trinity, for one, the huge bureacratic system that would be needed and personal control by LL employees would make that practically impossible I think
[12:53] Trinity Coulter: yes, that seems reasonable, Triss... set a clear standard and if people meet it, they vote
[12:53] Triss Gray: I don't think that's reasonable at all
[12:53] Rin Tae: but then .. paying should not be included in this standard
[12:54] Kitty Barnett: why would it be reasonable that people who don't pay a pennie for something should get a say in how it's run?
[12:54] Rin Tae: and it ends as undemocratic again
[12:54] Triss Gray: because that's democracy?
[12:54] Trinity Coulter: you think it is reasonable for a person who doesn't care and isn't involved at all gets to vote equally with someone who works hard and invests their time in the betterment of the world?
[12:54] Annabelle Piaggio: Well these people still contribute to SL
[12:54] Kitty Barnett: I doubt it
[12:54] Triss Gray: if he doesn't care, why would the person vote
[12:54] You: well Trinity, you again equal paying money with being interested and involved...
[12:54] Annabelle Piaggio: Exactly Triss
[12:55] Trinity Coulter: yes, perfect point, Triss... so why should they even be given that privilege?
[12:55] Annabelle Piaggio: I doubt there´d be more than a few hundred votes anyway
[12:55] Rin Tae: so I´m uninterested und don't care about SL
[12:55] You: and with that exclude the possibility of not paying anything but still be involved or investing in SL.
[12:55] Annabelle Piaggio: Most people simply don´t care
[12:55] Annabelle Piaggio: Those that do care should have the right to vote
[12:55] Trinity Coulter: i mention "payment verified" only because its an easy to identify group, and statistically you probably would end up at the same result for most things
[12:56] Triss Gray: because if you would be interested, you couldn't vote ?
[12:56] Annabelle Piaggio: We don´t need a landbarons club here deciding what´s best for everyone else
[12:56] You: Annabelle, I am sure that when the final policy on adfarms or mainland zoning, where they asked for feedback on the forums, would come under a vote, by a referendum, that many more then aa few hundred will vote....
[12:56] Pella Nightfire: couldn't someone verify payment on more than one account
[12:56] Trinity Coulter: we also don't need a layabouts club of griefers and multiple voters
[12:56] Triss Gray: that's what the registration system would have to tackle
[12:56] Pella Nightfire: i haven't done it so i am wondering
[12:56] Pella Nightfire: ok
[12:57] Kitty Barnett: is the US any less of a democracy because I can't vote for the presidential election?... citizens can vote, everyone else can't... redeeming qualities just don't come into it
[12:57] Triss Gray: yes, actually it is
[12:57] Triss Gray: if you live there, you should be able to vote
[12:57] Trinity Coulter: I think what Kitty is saying is that by your standard, everyone in the world, no matter what nation they are from, they should be able to vote for the US president
[12:58] Triss Gray: no
[12:58] Annabelle Piaggio: What you suggest would mean people living on welfare for example should be excluded from elections
[12:58] Triss Gray: obviously not
[12:58] Trinity Coulter: but you're ok with that delineation
[12:58] You: ok, so a citizen is only those that pay directly to LL...but we miss so many people with that, people that rent land, have their businesses, build content
[12:58] Annabelle Piaggio: That´s not democratic
[12:58] Trinity Coulter: yes, Smoke, but that is where "payment verified" comes in
[12:58] Trinity Coulter: that's more than landowners
[12:58] Kitty Barnett: there just aren't that many rent paying, business owning avies who don't end up spending money with LL one way or another
[12:58] Triss Gray: nope, theres a lot of ways to get that without payment verified
[12:59] Trinity Coulter: so Triss, how do you regularly get money into your account without being payment verified?
[12:59] Triss Gray: as long as there's one, it's worth fighting for :-)
[12:59] Triss Gray: slexchange for example?
[12:59] Rin Tae: I was one .. I had a shop run by what I have build and sold . it worked great actually
[12:59] Pella Nightfire: i buy lindens from slexchange
[12:59] Triss Gray: by working your way up with only profit from inworld stuff
[13:00] Trinity Coulter: ok, so if you were "payment verified" with SLexchange then
[13:00] Trinity Coulter: in addition to the LL payment verified
[13:00] Triss Gray: by not giving a flying f*ck about lindens, and just enjoying sl, perhaps creating free content
[13:00] Triss Gray: perhaps helping people out
[13:00] Trinity Coulter: ok, well, like it or not, the Lindens are the "nobility"
[13:00] Triss Gray: there's thousands of ways
[13:00] Trinity Coulter: they don't ultimately have to give a flying anything about the "rabble"
[13:00] Rin Tae: and I have actually really camped for my first lindens to upload textures too
[13:00] Kitty Barnett: so your priorities trump people who are actually paying for their land then, Triss?
[13:01] You: thats true Trinity...
[13:01] Kitty Barnett: how is that "democratic"?
[13:01] Trinity Coulter: its mob rule, i would think
[13:01] Trinity Coulter: which is an ugly form of democracy
[13:01] Triss Gray: why are they trumped? the people paying for their land will also get a say
[13:01] Rin Tae: how is it democratic to exclude those who are building the houses the people with the land are sitting in?
[13:01] Triss Gray: the same say as anyone else is getting
[13:01] Triss Gray: no more, no less
[13:01] Kitty Barnett: because there's 100 times more "tourists" then people who pay for SL
[13:01] Trinity Coulter: Rin, honestly, how many people who build houses or have a business won't be payment verified?
[13:02] Annabelle Piaggio: I know quite a few
[13:02] Trinity Coulter: if you are running a business, you'll have a method of getting the money out
[13:02] Rin Tae: I know a lot of people who are like this .. the RP community is actually full of them
[13:02] Triss Gray: if there are, that's enough
[13:02] Trinity Coulter: either via SLexchange, or LL
[13:02] Triss Gray: and still, it's not even about the how many
[13:02] Annabelle Piaggio: No, some people just do it for the sake of it and don´t take any money out
[13:02] Trinity Coulter: no, its not enough to subvert good government for 1 person's sake
[13:03] You: which, you could argue, is even more useful for the SL economy Annabelle, then someone who takes out all profits into RL
[13:03] Triss Gray: good government? by leaving them out, you eat away at the base of good government
[13:03] Trinity Coulter: no
[13:03] Annabelle Piaggio: That´s right smoke
[13:03] Kitty Barnett: it is... when you have a minority who provides the funding to make SL run and a majority who just wants a free ride you don't let the majority decide anything because they just don't contribute
[13:03] Trinity Coulter: you can have good government with a King
[13:03] Triss Gray: you can have bad government with a president :-p
[13:04] Trinity Coulter: good government isn't defined by its format of expression... democracies can be just as vile as anything else
[13:04] Triss Gray: no system equals good or bad
[13:04] Rin Tae: but thats again .. if you only count financial contribution, you leave everything out .. those who care to create content and events for example
[13:04] Kitty Barnett: there is nothing else
[13:04] Trinity Coulter: exactly, so you can't say legitimately that you must have FULL democracy or else its awful
[13:04] Kitty Barnett: SL needs money to run, no money, no SL...
[13:04] Trinity Coulter: you can have a balance
[13:04] You: brb, phone
[13:04] Triss Gray: no, but I can say that striving for it will likely provide a better system
[13:05] Rin Tae: no content no SL too .. no people no SL too
[13:05] Kitty Barnett: there's plenty of paying resident content to go around
[13:05] Trinity Coulter: ok, then work out an easy way for those people to be included
[13:05] Trinity Coulter: and not just the people who make 1 chair and nothing again
[13:05] Triss Gray: I have: don't exclude them to start with :-p
[13:05] Kitty Barnett: lol
[13:05] Rin Tae: yes.. I said it often enough ..no system is perfect, but we should get as near to perfection as possible
[13:05] Trinity Coulter: Triss, that leads to lots of people having multiple votes
[13:06] Trinity Coulter: and people who don't care about the outcome voting in ways that are contrary to the benefit of society
[13:06] Rin Tae: only if you don't care to create a valid voting system
[13:06] Kitty Barnett: we get more newbies joining SL every month than there are actual SL established residents... so really only what newbies think would count for anything because they're by far the largest group
[13:06] Annabelle Piaggio: Who are you to decide what´s best for the society?
[13:06] Trinity Coulter: yes, its valid enough by starting with "payment verified"
[13:06] Trinity Coulter: well, Anna, isn't that the whole point of votes... deciding what is best for society?
[13:07] Annabelle Piaggio: Of course but we´re past the times where only the select few decide on that
[13:07] Trinity Coulter: so by your own admission, i SHOULD be helping to decide what is best for society
[13:07] Triss Gray: yes, and you don't do that by excluding that part of society that doesn't adhere to some monetary standard
[13:07] Rin Tae: right
[13:07] Trinity Coulter: no... its not a monetary basis
[13:07] Triss Gray: yes, you should
[13:07] Trinity Coulter: its a anti-fraud basis
[13:08] Trinity Coulter: has nothing to do (for me) with the money, at least directly
[13:08] Triss Gray: and anyone not adhering to your standard is thus a fraud?
[13:08] Trinity Coulter: Triss, if you can't be easily verified, it opens the voting to more fraud
[13:08] Triss Gray: i'm not against verification
[13:08] Trinity Coulter: that is the whole point
[13:08] Triss Gray: i'm against verifying by money
[13:09] Triss Gray: sure, it's the easy way
[13:09] Trinity Coulter: ok, then we can all agree on AT LEAST "payment verified" people will be voting... because they can be verified
[13:09] Triss Gray: but I don't think it's the best way
[13:09] Rin Tae: for a voting system, verification is needed ... but money is something that should not have anything to do with it
[13:09] Trinity Coulter: now... next group please....
[13:09] Annabelle Piaggio: Ah I forgot... there´s an easy way
[13:09] Triss Gray: besides, the payment info system can be easily gamed as well
[13:09] Annabelle Piaggio: The CPUs MAC adress, the IP often changes the MAC adress doesn´t and it´s a right kerfuffle to change it
[13:09] Trinity Coulter: its kind of pointless to argue over the "payment verified" people since we would agree that they would probably all be voting
[13:09] Triss Gray: isn't that difficult to create multiple accounts
[13:10] Annabelle Piaggio: LL already uses the MAC adress for their banning system
[13:10] Triss Gray: mm, mac is easy actually
[13:10] Triss Gray: I think I can even change it here with one command :-)
[13:10] Annabelle Piaggio: Joe Sixpack can´t
[13:10] Trinity Coulter: so, out of the non-payment verified people, who should vote?
[13:10] Annabelle Piaggio: If you´re an expert it is
[13:10] Triss Gray: joe sixpack would quickly find a way on the net
[13:11] Triss Gray: all of them
[13:11] Annabelle Piaggio: Joe Sixpack wouldn´t even know what it is
[13:11] Triss Gray: if you define people as natural persons
[13:11] Trinity Coulter: ok, i don't think we can agree that that would be fair, Triss
[13:11] Trinity Coulter: very open to fraud
[13:11] Triss Gray: how's that? if you can assert someone exists, and has bothered to create a sl account, he's no fraud to me
[13:12] Kitty Barnett: you're basing everything on the assumption that without pre-selection you'll get people who decide what's best for SL when it's the opposite
[13:12] Trinity Coulter: yes, and if they have 10 accounts... they get 10 votes?
[13:12] Triss Gray: no: 1 natural person, one vote
[13:12] You: back
[13:12] Trinity Coulter: SL doesn't work that way, Triss
[13:12] Kitty Barnett: wb-ies
[13:12] You: ty
[13:12] Triss Gray: well, that's what I mean with verification
[13:13] Triss Gray: you verify someone is real, and has only one vote
[13:13] Rin Tae: we are reapeating over and over again that it is one person one vote .. not one account one vote
[13:13] Trinity Coulter: yes, so, back to the question... who, out of the non-payment people should vote
[13:13] Triss Gray: whereas you mean by verification if someone is worthy enough to vote
[13:13] Annabelle Piaggio: All
[13:13] Rin Tae: all of them
[13:13] Trinity Coulter: no
[13:13] You: all
[13:13] Trinity Coulter: that's fraud
[13:13] Triss Gray: all
[13:13] Rin Tae: anyhting else is not democratic
[13:13] Rin Tae: and should not call itself democratic
[13:13] You: although an age-limit is reasonable
[13:13] Trinity Coulter: if all alts and primary accounts voted, that would be full of fraud
[13:14] Trinity Coulter: not democratic at all
[13:14] Triss Gray: 1 PERSON, 1 VOTE
[13:14] Triss Gray: not 1 account 1 vote
[13:14] You: only natural persons that ID verified can vote...
[13:14] Kitty Barnett: you can't say "all" and say "one person one vote".... that's a blatant contradiction
[13:14] Rin Tae: and again ONE PERSON ONE VOTE not one account one vote
[13:14] Trinity Coulter: yes, and how do you, with your resources determine that in SL? you can't
[13:14] Triss Gray: all = all natural persons
[13:14] Trinity Coulter: SL is anonymous
[13:14] Triss Gray: 5 avatars by the same person is one person to me
[13:14] You: Hello Kitten, welcome
[13:14] Trinity Coulter: yes, but you won't know that the person is all 5
[13:15] Trinity Coulter: so the idea blows up
[13:15] Annabelle Piaggio: The only problems is accounts aren´t linked
[13:15] Triss Gray: these avatars may show different personalities or whatever
[13:15] Triss Gray: but they will still be the same person
[13:15] Kitty Barnett: you can't tell one way or the other... for all I know the 7 of you are all 1 person :p
[13:15] Rin Tae: thats why the registration is needed .. as was said before .. a few times I think actually
[13:15] Triss Gray: so that's what we mean with a verification system
[13:15] Trinity Coulter: ok, Triss, but you can't tell, so, next idea please
[13:15] Kitty Barnett: there is no verification system that will work for that though
[13:15] Triss Gray: and what we are discussing , amongst others, is how you would verify that
[13:15] You: Trinity .. the voting is not handled in SL....
[13:15] Trinity Coulter: you need to have a reasonable system that doesn't violate the ToS
[13:16] You: it cant, to be meaningful
[13:16] You: in SL
[13:16] Trinity Coulter: by reasonable, i mean, good enough... not perfect
[13:16] You: on LL's servers
[13:16] Triss Gray: and I think one payment account one vote is way more easy to subvert then 1 verified natural person one vote
[13:16] Trinity Coulter: not at all
[13:17] Kitty Barnett: so anyone that doesn't want to go through your verification method can't vote, which excludes people, which isn't allowed, so verification can't be required... this is just one big circle :p
[13:17] Triss Gray: I can have 5 virtual CC by totmorrow
[13:17] Annabelle Piaggio: Many got several payment accounts
[13:17] You: but LL should work together with some org to provide for connections to verified IDs (by the trusted, independent, non-for profit third party org) and SL accounts
[13:17] Trinity Coulter: yes, many do, Anna... but its "reasonable"
[13:17] Trinity Coulter: that should be the standard here... not perfection
[13:17] Kitty Barnett: there will be people who don't want to verify, just like there are people who don't want to age verify...
[13:17] Annabelle Piaggio: No it isn´t, it´s the excuse me, same shit as if every account could vote
[13:17] Rin Tae: but with this, payment info is not good enough for voting after all it seems
[13:17] Trinity Coulter: you're asking for some perfect system where everyone uses your external verification system
[13:18] You: not ours
[13:18] Triss Gray: everyone who would want to vote, yes
[13:18] Rin Tae: well in the US you need to register to vote too
[13:18] Trinity Coulter: i think "Payment Info Used" is a reasonable start for granting a vote.... then you can focus easily on the rest
[13:18] You: "trusted, independent"
[13:18] Triss Gray: and that verification systerm should be in such a way, that it's honest, and reasonable, yes
[13:18] You: not ours
[13:18] Triss Gray: but payment info is far from honest
[13:18] Trinity Coulter: "Payment Info Used" is an easy shortcut to move you into a partial democracy
[13:19] Trinity Coulter: not perfect, but a start
[13:19] Kitten Scribe: what are we talking about here?
[13:19] Kitty Barnett: if verification in any way involves RL identity then some people won't want to submit to it and you're excluding people which according to you is a mortal sin.... you're just trying to justify your own pre-selection method
[13:19] Annabelle Piaggio: BTW the "payment info used" stays even when you delete your payment info
[13:19] Trinity Coulter: yes, and that isn't really relevant to things, Anna
[13:19] You: Kitty, you know any other system that would allow for exlcusion of bots and alts?
[13:19] Annabelle Piaggio: It is, you say only people who financially contribute should be able to vote
[13:20] You: any other than RL ID verification...
[13:20] Trinity Coulter: you're stuck with the limitations of SL... if you want to create a perfect system for people to submit their RL identities to you, then fine
[13:20] Annabelle Piaggio: So I enter my CC details just to vote and delete them after
[13:20] Trinity Coulter: but most people won't want you to have that information
[13:20] You: Trinity, again, not to us ...
[13:20] Rin Tae: have we ever said 'to us'?
[13:20] Annabelle Piaggio: Now THAT would be fraud don´t you think?
[13:20] Kitty Barnett: I'm just pointing out that whatever method you pick isn't going to be "fair", you'll *always* exclude people
[13:20] Trinity Coulter: I'm still not sure why you're opposed to the first breakdown of eligibility by a simple method of "Payment Info Used"
[13:20] Kitten Scribe agrees with Kitty
[13:20] Triss Gray: yes, but there are ways to exclude less people then with payment info
[13:20] Kitten Scribe: strings will always be pulled
[13:21] Trinity Coulter: Triss.. that is the 1st step
[13:21] Trinity Coulter: NOT the only step
[13:21] Kitten Scribe: balls of yarn will always be thrown away
[13:21] Kitty Barnett sprinkles some catnip on the floor :)
[13:21] Triss Gray: why implement a first step you know isn't ok, when you can do it better from the start
[13:21] Trinity Coulter: Triss... it IS ok
[13:21] Trinity Coulter: its not Perfect
[13:21] Trinity Coulter: its OK
[13:21] Rin Tae: because actually by agreeing to it, I would also exclude myself and I KNOW that I'm doing more for SL then most of the people who have payment info on file and are simply here to shop and have pixelsex ... and sorry, but this is silly
[13:21] Triss Gray: for you, for me, and for others, it's not ok
[13:22] Trinity Coulter: you're being too restrictive then
[13:22] Trinity Coulter: you could easily be onto the next step and out of this muddle
[13:22] Trinity Coulter: but by insisting on such a perfect standard, its complicating your progress
[13:22] Kitty Barnett thinks bots should get to vote to... they have rights too :p
[13:22] Trinity Coulter: lol
[13:22] Kitten Scribe: clones
[13:23] Kitten Scribe: we need clone activists
[13:23] You: not yet Kitty ... when they become conscious .. definetly
[13:23] Triss Gray: untill a bot snags that piece of land from you, then you're suddenly against :-p
[13:23] Kitty Barnett giggles
[13:23] Kitten Scribe: you mean to imply Triss, that everyone here is real?
[13:23] Kitty Barnett: which is one thing a tourist isn't going to care about because they'd never be in that position
[13:23] Kitten Scribe: I did not get that memo
[13:23] Rin Tae repeats the thing about one person one vote and not one account one vote .. but it seems like it´s not getting through....
[13:23] Kitten Scribe searches Kitty for fembot qualities
[13:24] Trinity Coulter: Rin, i will also repeat the... "its impossible to tell 1 person"
[13:24] Triss Gray: i'm quite sure the people contributing to the discussion are quite real yes
[13:24] Trinity Coulter: so you approximate the best you can
[13:24] Kitty Barnett giggles.. "bleep.. beep.. beep" :p
[13:24] Kitten Scribe: AHH HA
[13:24] Triss Gray: no ai is advanced enough
[13:24] Annabelle Piaggio: The best you can isn´t good enough then
[13:24] Rin Tae: actually .. right in this discussion I was called everything from griefer to tourist just for the fact that I choose not to have a payment info on file .. so I do allow myself to get a little bit angry about it
[13:24] Kitten Scribe: you are speaking to an AI
[13:24] Kitten Scribe: from Japan
[13:25] Triss Gray: it's not impossible, it's difficult
[13:25] You: do you think that people will not want to ID verify when they can have a meaningful say in how SL is run... I could see why people did not do this with the age verification, since the reason was stupid and the company was scary
[13:25] Kitten Scribe: My Master is Hiro Ikeda
[13:25] Triss Gray: now this person may like to think he/she is an ai
[13:25] Trinity Coulter: I don't think i called you a griefer or tourist
[13:25] Annabelle Piaggio: Indirectly you did
[13:25] Trinity Coulter: those statements were generalizations about some people who do not have payment info
[13:25] Rin Tae: not me personally ..but I felt like the fact that I don't have payment info makes me a second class citizen
[13:25] Trinity Coulter: and they ARE accurate
[13:26] Triss Gray: generalizations are never accurate
[13:26] Kitty Barnett: but you phrased the reason for it, Rin... you *choose* to be anonymous and non-paying... it's a *choice*... you can decide to be involved at any point, you just don't want to... so why should that be catered to?
[13:26] Triss Gray: THAT's a contradiction
[13:26] Triss Gray: just not by money
[13:26] Rin Tae: but I am involved
[13:26] Triss Gray: rin IS involved
[13:26] You: Kitty, again you reason from no paying = not involved
[13:26] Trinity Coulter: yes, Rin is involved... i agree
[13:26] Triss Gray: tadaa, the generalization is not accurate :-)
[13:26] Trinity Coulter: but not easily verified (as a group)
[13:26] Kitty Barnett: because it's true for 99.9% of all NPIOFs
[13:27] Triss Gray: I can as easily grab numbers out of thin air as that
[13:27] Kitten Scribe: 123456
[13:27] Trinity Coulter: me too... 7!!!
[13:27] Kitten Scribe: like that?
[13:27] Kitty Barnett: for everyone person you find who is involved as a no payment info you can find 500 campers who aren't
[13:27] Triss Gray: 88% of people buying lindens are narcists :-p
[13:27] Rin Tae: and the same is true for people with paymnt info
[13:28] Annabelle Piaggio: 95% of SL residents are only in it for the sex
[13:28] Annabelle Piaggio: And they don´t vote as long as it´s delivered
[13:28] Kitty Barnett: the whole "money shouldn't matter" is trying to justify a choice you made... it's a self inflicted restriction you decided for yourself
[13:28] Triss Gray: so that makes you contributing then? because you spent the monetary equivalent of a cup of coffee? :-)
[13:30] You: Kitty, even if it is a "ideological" choice of us regarding the paying .. we have established I think that just payment verified does not exclude alts and bots
[13:30] Trinity Coulter: you're right, Smoke
[13:30] You: which means that no voting system can be meaningful
[13:30] Trinity Coulter: but its a decent approximation to start with
[13:30] Trinity Coulter: to help filter
[13:30] Trinity Coulter: just like age
[13:30] You: but why not, as Triss said, do it right the first time
[13:30] Trinity Coulter: this is ALL the first time
[13:30] Trinity Coulter: i'm just coming up with filters
[13:30] Kitty Barnett: everyone with payment info on file already has their RL name on file with LL... filter by "made a payment in the past X months" and by unique name and tada
[13:31] Kitty Barnett: thankies :)
[13:31] Annabelle Piaggio: No I used someone elses CC
[13:31] Pella Nightfire: Just let pella be the ruler of the grid
[13:31] You: and for the record, I am thinking about a system next to SL/LL, but where LL cooperates with.
[13:31] Trinity Coulter: you can't legitimately have ALL
[13:31] Kitty Barnett: then you committed fraud
[13:31] Annabelle Piaggio: No I asked if I can use it
[13:31] Trinity Coulter: so age is a valid restriction we seem to agree on
[13:31] Kitten Scribe: are those with no payment info illegitimate users of second life?
[13:31] Triss Gray: yes, since age is a restriction for being in sl
[13:31] Kitten Scribe: and should those with payment info get a birth certificate with SL seal of approval?
[13:31] Kitty Barnett: lol :p
[13:31] Trinity Coulter: and payment info used seems like a good way to add more people to the voter rolls
[13:32] Kitten Scribe: yeah. I don't get how they plan to claim SL is for adults only
[13:32] Trinity Coulter: some filters eliminate, and some add back
[13:32] Kitten Scribe: it's fairly obvious they just wanted to open up the flood gates for seeming to have more subscribers
[13:32] Kitten Scribe: in order to bring more businesses into this virtual world
[13:32] Kitty Barnett just restricted voting to everyone named Kitty, Kitten or who is in some other way cat-ish... everyone knows cats know best :p
[13:32] Triss Gray: a filter can't add back, then it isn't a filter
[13:32] Kitten Scribe conpurrs
[13:32] Trinity Coulter: ok... what word do you like then, Triss?
[13:33] Pella Nightfire: but Pella wants to rule the grid
[13:33] You: we dont
[13:33] Trinity Coulter: i'm talking about different ways of qualifying and disqualifying voter status
[13:33] You: we want people to rule themselves and together negotiate with LL regarding SL and ToS
[13:33] You: and for that, a trusted system is needed, which canNOT be by LL
[13:34] Triss Gray: all people qualify for me... which doesn't mean all avs, but we're just discussing the same all over
[13:34] Kitten Scribe still not following
[13:34] Trinity Coulter: you could always break land down into classes too... and have representative for those areas... like Mainland/Private/Landless
[13:34] Triss Gray: let's just state that we differ in meaning, and keep it at that, since we can't convince you, and vice versa
[13:34] You: not wanting to turn to a representative model will be one of those other self restrictions by choice Trinity
[13:35] Trinity Coulter: i think you do agree... you're simply missing the reasoning i'm trying to convey
[13:35] Trinity Coulter: i'm not excluding anyone (except on age) yet
[13:35] Trinity Coulter: age filter would be exclusionary.... payment info used would be inclusionary
[13:36] Trinity Coulter: i'm just defining a list of things that might be easy to define legitimate votes
[13:36] Kitten Scribe: what is the main goal?
[13:36] Kitten Scribe: I keep seeing something about voting
[13:36] Kitten Scribe: and TOS but not very many specifics
[13:36] Kitten Scribe: what is the main concern?
[13:36] You: Kitten that is the topic of todays discussion, voting, voting system, for SL
[13:36] Kitty Barnett: representative doesn't necessarily mean "everyone"
[13:37] Kitten Scribe: something made you think about it
[13:37] You: yes
[13:37] Triss Gray: I don't see payment info as inclusionary, since it doesn't qualify as makes sure there's only one person voting
[13:37] You: the rationale of the group Kitten
[13:37] You: SLDM
[13:37] Trinity Coulter: Triss, its inclusionary because its a filter for including people into the voting pool
[13:37] You: lol Trinity, so is age then
[13:37] You: since it includes all that are a certain age
[13:37] Annabelle Piaggio: And excluding everyone else
[13:37] Kitten Scribe: well second life is a business
[13:37] You: right
[13:38] Triss Gray: no, BEHIND sl is a business
[13:38] You: Kitten, yes it is, but one where a product, the SL world, is created by its users
[13:38] Kitty Barnett: why should age be a criteria? the teens on Teen SL don't get to have a voice?
[13:38] Kitten Scribe: all that would end up happening is a lot like real life
[13:38] Kitten Scribe: where votes can be...altered
[13:38] Kitten Scribe: for desired hierarchy effect
[13:38] Triss Gray: no, since the aren't on this grid
[13:38] Kitten Scribe: so if the lindens all caved in over a movement
[13:38] Trinity Coulter: i was thinking account age would be exclusionary, since those under a certain age would be prevented from voting
[13:38] Kitty Barnett: they are
[13:38] Kitten Scribe: that is what they would end up doing anyway
[13:38] You: I dont know where the age comes from .. but the "age-limit" I am talking about is one of being in SL....
[13:38] Kitten Scribe: to have people shut up
[13:38] Triss Gray: the same way you don't get to vote in russia if you live on malta
[13:38] Kitty Barnett: Teen SL is Agni which is where we are, they're just on an hidden estate
[13:38] Kitten Scribe: and think their vote matters
[13:39] Triss Gray: it matters, for their grid
[13:39] Trinity Coulter: well i am fine just excluding Teen Grid... LL does by 90% of its policies anyway
[13:39] You: Kitten, the goals of SLDM consider radical changes in the ToS, to enable rights and protections...voting is but a tool in the whole broad thing
[13:40] Kitten Scribe: what rights and protections?
[13:40] Trinity Coulter: the right to catnip for underprivileged kittens
[13:40] Kitten Scribe: I'm not underprivelaged
[13:40] Kitten Scribe: I'm not weak
[13:40] Kitty Barnett perks
[13:40] Kitten Scribe: I sell catnip on the streets
[13:40] You: Kitten: http://www.sldemocraticmovement.org/faq
[13:40] Kitty Barnett: oooo *whispers to Kitten* "I'll take 2 bags!"
[13:41] You: do know, that site is new...the other did not want to work with us
[13:41] Kitten Scribe whispers back...that'll be three fifdy
[13:41] Pella Nightfire: does this group meet weekly?
[13:41] Kitty Barnett pays and dives behind a couch enjoying the kitty treat :o
[13:41] You: Pella, these discussions are each tuesday, same time, same place
[13:41] Pella Nightfire: ok thank you
[13:41] You: and SLDM has membership meeting each sunday
[13:42] Trinity Coulter: you know democracy wasn't forced on the Kings in a day
[13:42] Trinity Coulter: it might be ok to take small steps
[13:42] Rin Tae: it is a long term process
[13:42] Pella Nightfire: i have to go, good bye everyone, interesting discussion
[13:42] Rin Tae: byebye
[13:42] Trinity Coulter: let the knights begin the process
[13:42] Kitty Barnett: they were beheaded first... *looks for a guillotine on search*
[13:42] Trinity Coulter: and it will move on from there
[13:42] Kitten Scribe: oh good call
[13:42] You: Trinity, but I dont think it is a sound strategy to reach for only that what is directly possible....
[13:43] You: Bye Pella, goodbye
[13:43] Kitten Scribe: You just reminded me that I have to go
[13:43] Trinity Coulter: for all you know Linden Lab won't even take 1 step toward you
[13:43] You: yes
[13:43] You: they dont have to take a step to us, but to the people, that will have to demand rights en masse
[13:43] Rin Tae: but this should not make us stop in thinking about it
[13:43] Trinity Coulter: right now its a feudalistic system
[13:43] Trinity Coulter: so you could take reasonable steps
[13:44] Kitty Barnett: most people don't care about rights to be fair :p
[13:44] You: Kitty, very true
[13:44] Trinity Coulter: rather than wanting to go right to perfection
[13:44] Triss Gray: so do many people in RL even
[13:44] You: but most people also state that it is ridiculous that in a usercreated world, LL can just without any liability ban accounts and delete content
[13:44] Rin Tae: thats one of the problem.. people are too ready to accept restrictions on their rights
[13:44] You: my excuses for all the typos
[13:45] Trinity Coulter: LL called us "Residents" once... now they call us "Users"
[13:45] Kitty Barnett: by the same token you could say it's ridiculous to expect rights from a private company though
[13:45] Trinity Coulter: what does that say about their mindset?
[13:45] Trinity Coulter: yep, Kitty
[13:45] You: Kitty, yes, I do think we are on a paradigm change concerning contracts/rights of users in cyberspace
[13:46] You: and that implies non-communicating systems
[13:46] Triss Gray: it's the same old "they can do whatever they want"... they may be able too, but that doesn't mean you can't strive for something better
[13:46] Kitty Barnett: I don't have a right to be on this parcel either, just a privilege that's revokable at any point
[13:46] Trinity Coulter: yes, very land-based rights
[13:46] Trinity Coulter: you pay, you get power
[13:46] You: yes, and by focussing on the ToS, which may be hardest to get change, it will affect everyone, and not just landowners
[13:47] Trinity Coulter: over your tiny corner of SL at least
[13:47] Triss Gray: nah, you pay, and you get your own puppet theatre
[13:47] Triss Gray: and if you're lucky, you get to keep it :-)
[13:48] Trinity Coulter: i'm all out of debate-ness :)
[13:48] Kitty Barnett is restraining herself :p
[13:48] You: we are almost at the 2 hours ...
[13:48] Trinity Coulter ties the Kitty up
[13:48] Kitty Barnett: hey!!!
[13:49] You: lol
[13:49] Kitty Barnett: there's no "tie up kitties" right!!!
[13:49] Trinity Coulter looks for that rule in the ToS......
[13:49] You: Trinity, Annabelle, Kitty, did you see the ToS of Metaplace?
[13:49] Annabelle Piaggio: Metaplace?
[13:49] Kitty Barnett: not me :o
[13:49] Trinity Coulter: no
[13:50] You: this is another virtual world platform, albeit in its infancy...
[13:50] Annabelle Piaggio: Ah, never heard of it
[13:50] You: but they incorporated user rights in their ToS...
[13:50] Rin Tae: what is a very interesting document
[13:50] Annabelle Piaggio: About time there´s competition, I just hope they don´t get connected somehow
[13:51] Triss Gray: I was thinking maybe we should try to invite one of the creators for a chat
[13:51] You: after the article of Ralph Koster.."declaring the rights of players " from 2000
[13:51] Triss Gray: could be interesting
[13:51] You: yes Triss, that would be indeed
[13:51] Rin Tae: ohh.. yes, Triss
[13:51] Triss Gray: if they can be bothered that is :-)
[13:51] You: let me get a link for the others...
[13:51] Rin Tae: yes.. of course
[13:52] You: http://www.raphkoster.com/2008/09/15/declaring-the-rights-of-metaplace-u...
[13:52] Trinity Coulter: if you want more press for SLDM, you might invite them to speak to Metanomics, with SLDM as the 'sponsor' or maybe one of you as a co-speaker
[13:53] You: lot of holes to be closed .. but it is a nice change
[13:53] You: right Trinity ...
[13:53] You: we like to be "independent" though...
[13:53] Triss Gray: isn't metanomics more geared towards economic topics though?
[13:53] Trinity Coulter: well independent is not human
[13:53] Trinity Coulter: no one is an island
[13:53] You: as org...I mainly reacted to being sponsor of Metanomics
[13:53] You: true Trinity, very true
[13:53] Trinity Coulter: that's the whole point of Democracy itself
[13:54] You: wow, strong cat Rin
[13:54] You: lol
[13:54] Triss Gray: get our wolf :-)
[13:54] Kitty Barnett sneaks off for now :o *waves* good luck still too :)
[13:54] Trinity Coulter: discussions would be easier if you would all just agree with me :p
[13:54] You: Goodbye Kitty, nice to meet you
[13:54] Triss Gray: no, then there wouldn't be a discussion
[13:54] Trinity Coulter: i need to go too :)
[13:54] Rin Tae: byebye
[13:54] You: alright :)
[13:55] Trinity Coulter: yes, Triss, i was just being silly
[13:55] Triss Gray: see ya
[13:55] You: thanks for coming along, always nice to have you
[13:55] Triss Gray: don't forget to spend some l$, so you can prove your right to be here though :-p
[13:55] You: going to save the chatlog, brb
[13:55] Annabelle Piaggio: *g*